Why do some "advanced" kungfu practitioners look like kickboxers, and indeed use mainly kickboxing techniques when fighting, both in competition and actual combat?

My opinion is this...
These students are, infact, not as "advanced" as they would have us believe.
Pretty much every style of martial art is made up of basic techniques, such as straight punch, full-foot front kick etc... This is the level that the vast majority of practitioners reach. They can throw a refined punch, or kick.

But...

For whatever reason, be it their teacher either didn't know, or didn't share, these students do not posess the knowledge of the next level.

Application.

We all know that nearly all of the older Chinese martial styles are made up of forms/linked sets. We learn these pretty much from day one. The movements contained within the forms are the next level up from simple kickboxing. These applications deal with intercepting an oncoming attack, redirecting the energy of the opponents force and initiating a counter-attack before the opponent is able to re-assert himself.

It's not enough to simply practice the forms, and the basic techniques! Every kungfu student should seek to perfect the applications taught through the forms of their chosen style, be it Mantis, Fanzi, Bagua etc. The applications are the middle phase.

The last phase, the "freeform" phase.

Going beyond the forms and applications. I don't know

Opinions?


I posted this a while ago on a different forum. Came across it again this evening and thought I'd share it here.

Hmmm, where do I start, the nose or the tail.

If you define any sporting context, then the victors will employ the techniques and strategies which work best within the rule structure (or those they can just about get away with).
So if you put peole in a boxing ring, put boxing gloves on them, tell them they can kick, then it's going to look like Kick Boxing.
Tell them knees, elbows and clinching is allowed and it's going to look like Muay Thai.
All regardless of whether the people involved have trained wrestling, Tai Chi or Yellow Bamboo.


To be able to employ techniques, or principles gleaned from Traditional CMA forms, you need the ability to recognise any attack for its true nature from its initiation.

If all you are taught, is;

"Throw a punch at me", followed by " I can do this, this and this" kind of thing, then this is what the whole "Aliveness" debate is really about.

A real attacker will not wait for you to Iron your Chi Kung, or gather Chi, nor will they tell you which hand they are going to hit you with and wait until you are ready.

So it'd be reasonable to suggest that the only way to test your 'skill', is against someone who doesn't want to play along.
I don't see how twenty plus years training with a Mystical Master, sitting naked under a waterfall or lifting heavy weights with your testicles helps a great deal with that other than them wanting to steer clear of you because you are clearly mental.

In short, if you are at the stage where you can send any random attacker sailing into the gutter with a shrug of your shoulders, surely you should be smart enough to not be in that situation.
Indeed, if your level is so high, why not simply levitate out of harms way, or transfer yourself to the Astral plane.

Not a dig at you by the way BT.
I really enjoy Martial Arts, the study, the practice, the debate and philosophy etc.
I think it's all largely pointless and if people could just get over that, we'd all enjoy it a heck of a lot more.


P.S. See thread; Definitions- Kung Fu.

http://www.martialedge.net/forum/chinese-martial-arts/definitions;-kung-fu/

Hmmm, where do I start, the nose or the tail.

If you define any sporting context, then the victors will employ the techniques and strategies which work best within the rule structure (or those they can just about get away with).
So if you put peole in a boxing ring, put boxing gloves on them, tell them they can kick, then it's going to look like Kick Boxing.
Tell them knees, elbows and clinching is allowed and it's going to look like Muay Thai.
All regardless of whether the people involved have trained wrestling, Tai Chi or Yellow Bamboo.

Having gloves on shouldn't stop you from being able to utilise specialised techniques found in CMA's.

To be able to employ techniques, or principles gleaned from Traditional CMA forms, you need the ability to recognise any attack for its true nature from its initiation.

It's called Ting Jin and Jie Jin. Listening and Intercepting.


If all you are taught, is;

"Throw a punch at me", followed by " I can do this, this and this" kind of thing, then this is what the whole "Aliveness" debate is really about.

Is that not what I was saying?
CMA students are not taught how to use what they learn from their forms. So how can they possibly apply these techniques? They cannot, so they revert to basic techniques.

A real attacker will not wait for you to Iron your Chi Kung, or gather Chi, nor will they tell you which hand they are going to hit you with and wait until you are ready.

A bit patronising there? I've said nothing about qigong here.

So it'd be reasonable to suggest that the only way to test your 'skill', is against someone who doesn't want to play along.

Absolutely. I'm all for live training. But in the CMA context, live training isn't just kickboxing techniques.

I don't see how twenty plus years training with a Mystical Master, sitting naked under a waterfall or lifting heavy weights with your testicles helps a great deal with that other than them wanting to steer clear of you because you are clearly mental.

I've not mentioned any of this. I'm trying to discuss why students do not seem able to apply their CMA techniques in combat. I'm not trying to discuss any of this nonsense.

In short, if you are at the stage where you can send any random attacker sailing into the gutter with a shrug of your shoulders, surely you should be smart enough to not be in that situation.
Indeed, if your level is so high, why not simply levitate out of harms way, or transfer yourself to the Astral plane.

Again, making foolish comments. I'm talking about genuine high level martial ability. Not any of this nonsense that you seem intent on bringing into the discussion.


Not a dig at you by the way BT.
I really enjoy Martial Arts, the study, the practice, the debate and philosophy etc.
I think it's all largely pointless and if people could just get over that, we'd all enjoy it a heck of a lot more.


I'm not sure you actually engaged in the topic at hand. Instead you insisted on making childish and irrelevant comments about wuxia style fantasy.

LOL. Quote War!!!

Bailu Taiji wrote:


Having gloves on shouldn't stop you from being able to utilise specialised techniques found in CMA's.
Not the point of what I was saying.

To be able to employ techniques, or principles gleaned from Traditional CMA forms, you need the ability to recognise any attack for its true nature from its initiation.

It's called Ting Jin and Jie Jin. Listening and Intercepting.[/quote]
Which is developed best by being pressure tested?




CMA students are not taught how to use what they learn from their forms. So how can they possibly apply these techniques?What I'm getting at, is the learning process in CMA.
CMA students may well be taught various application for movements within forms.
Why should they feel limited to only employ those movements and react in a stylistic manner if there is no reason to?

They cannot, so they revert to basic techniques.
Surely, in an ideal world and assuming that all other avenues of resolve have been explored....a basic technique, executed perfectly, is no longer basic?



A bit patronising there? I've said nothing about qigong here.
Not at all.
Undo your top button bud.
I didn't say you did.




Absolutely. I'm all for live training. But in the CMA context, live training isn't just kickboxing techniques.
Cool, but why limit it to a CMA context?



I've not mentioned any of this. I'm trying to discuss why students do not seem able to apply their CMA techniques in combat. I'm not trying to discuss any of this nonsense.
LOL.
Chill Pill bud.
The original post you quoted (made by you?) covers a lot of complex issues, more easily broken down individually.
I'd be less concerned about whether someone can apply a particular technique and more concerned that they didn't understand the principle behind it.



Again, making foolish comments. I'm talking about genuine high level martial ability. Not any of this nonsense that you seem intent on bringing into the discussion.
It's just my sense of humour bud, chill.
Can you point me to anyone displaying "high level martial ability" outside of a demonstration?



I'm not sure you actually engaged in the topic at hand. Instead you insisted on making childish and irrelevant comments about wuxia style fantasy.
Focus your questions a bit?

All I had to go on, was the vague quote you posted.

mule wrote:
LOL. Quote War!!!

You're on


Bailu Taiji wrote:


Having gloves on shouldn't stop you from being able to utilise specialised techniques found in CMA's.
Not the point of what I was saying.

I think it's along the same lines. A ruleset defines the kind of equipment a fighter wears/uses, and limits some techniques. But just because you follow a particular ruleset, it doesn't mean you should just use kickboxing techniques.


To be able to employ techniques, or principles gleaned from Traditional CMA forms, you need the ability to recognise any attack for its true nature from its initiation.

It's called Ting Jin and Jie Jin. Listening and Intercepting.
Which is developed best by being pressure tested?

Initially best developed by hand-crossing training. In Taiji, Bagua & Hsing I, we have different methods of Push hands, in other styles there are the alternatives such as sticky hands, bridge hands, all of these are designed to teach students the initial stages of how to apply the techniques of their style in a confrontation. They may initially start of in a set pattern, but quickly can develop into a free flow exercise which pressure tests the skills under these circumstances. It's then the next step to take these skills to a light free sparring environment, and upwards.



CMA students are not taught how to use what they learn from their forms. So how can they possibly apply these techniques?What I'm getting at, is the learning process in CMA.
CMA students may well be taught various application for movements within forms.
Why should they feel limited to only employ those movements and react in a stylistic manner if there is no reason to?

Why learn a CMA then? As I'm sure you know, learning a form can take a lot of time and effort, and trying to understand applications can take double that. Why then should we throw all that effort away and just kickbox when we spar? Why not put a bit more effort in, and learn to apply the skills we are spending our time developing?


They cannot, so they revert to basic techniques.
Surely, in an ideal world and assuming that all other avenues of resolve have been explored....a basic technique, executed perfectly, is no longer basic?

In the context of this discussion, I'm using the term "basic" techniques to describe techniques in their base form, IE, a straight punch, a full-foot front kick etc. Of course, these basics should be developed to a high level. Everything is built on basics.


A bit patronising there? I've said nothing about qigong here.
Not at all.
Undo your top button bud.
I didn't say you did.

Then why bring qigong into the discussion?


Absolutely. I'm all for live training. But in the CMA context, live training isn't just kickboxing techniques.
Cool, but why limit it to a CMA context?

Again, why spend all that time, effort and money learning a CMA, if you're not going to use what you're taught?


I've not mentioned any of this. I'm trying to discuss why students do not seem able to apply their CMA techniques in combat. I'm not trying to discuss any of this nonsense.
LOL.
Chill Pill bud.
The original post you quoted (made by you?) covers a lot of complex issues, more easily broken down individually.
I'd be less concerned about whether someone can apply a particular technique and more concerned that they didn't understand the principle behind it.

As I said, I didn't mention anything about sitting under waterfalls, or strapping weights to your penis. I don't see why these things were brought into a discussion on application?


Again, making foolish comments. I'm talking about genuine high level martial ability. Not any of this nonsense that you seem intent on bringing into the discussion.
It's just my sense of humour bud, chill.
Can you point me to anyone displaying "high level martial ability" outside of a demonstration?

I'm not implying that "high level" means supernatural abilities. I'm talking purely in terms of fighting skills.
I know, as well as the next person that applications used in sparring or a fight will not look perfect, but they should be to some degree recognisable. There should be some kind of fighting stratergy that the style uses, as opposed to throwing punches and kicks, hoping that one or two will land.


I'm not sure you actually engaged in the topic at hand. Instead you insisted on making childish and irrelevant comments about wuxia style fantasy.
Focus your questions a bit?

All I had to go on, was the vague quote you posted.

This quote was actually a response to a question someone else posted on a different forum, not a question in itself. I'll try and find the original post and put it here for context sake.

I'm not trying to be petty or start an arguement, but this is something I am passionate about. Why spend all that time and money learning something, then not using it when you need to?

IMO, it is this lack of understanding that leads to the watering down of CMA.

Bailu Taiji wrote:
Why do some "advanced" kungfu practitioners look like kickboxers, and indeed use mainly kickboxing techniques when fighting, both in competition and actual combat?

As Mule said, in competition there are rules and protective equipment and this leads to people finding the techniques that work most effectively in that environment. If you watch boxing, kickboxing or mma, people use those techniques that work. These sports are arts in themselves with their own nuances. This is why sometimes "advanced" TMA people can look like very poor kickboxers when they first try it.

People use "basic" techniques as they have the highest success rate. I would use the term "core" techniques rather than "basic", but I suppose that's just window dressing. I would happily spend the rest of my days training "basic" techniques as there is so much to learn doing them.

In terms of actual combat, I think that people should use high percentage techniques that use gross motor skills. In the street there are no rules except the morals of the participants.

Just my thoughts

Bailu Taiji wrote:

I think it's along the same lines. A But just because you follow a particular ruleset, it doesn't mean you should just use kickboxing techniques.
In a kickboxing match?
If you're against an opponent of even novice standard, there's no scope for anything superfluous.
THAT IS Kung Fu.



Initially best developed by hand-crossing training. In Taiji, Bagua & Hsing I, we have different methods of Push hands, in other styles there are the alternatives such as sticky hands, bridge hands, all of these are designed to teach students the initial stages of how to apply the techniques of their style in a confrontation. They may initially start of in a set pattern, but quickly can develop into a free flow exercise which pressure tests the skills under these circumstances. It's then the next step to take these skills to a light free sparring environment, and upwards.
The next stage would be to try it on with someone outside of your system.
Who hasn't trained in all the same patterns.



Why learn a CMA then? As I'm sure you know, learning a form can take a lot of time and effort, and trying to understand applications can take double that. Why then should we throw all that effort away and just kickbox when we spar? Why not put a bit more effort in, and learn to apply the skills we are spending our time developing?
You seem to be saying that you can only be employing your 'art' if you engage in a stylistically recognisable manner?
A good example of one's art, to me, would be where everyone is saying "WTF just happened there?"



In the context of this discussion, I'm using the term "basic" techniques to describe techniques in their base form, IE, a straight punch, a full-foot front kick etc. Of course, these basics should be developed to a high level. Everything is built on basics.
Indeed, so why perform a 42 step Kata on someone, when you could just have pushed them down the well behind them?



Then why bring qigong into the discussion?
Is it not relevant to those who'll chime in with "Kung Fu doesn't work", to include it in the discussion.
Noting your background in CMA, I empathically brought it up.



Again, why spend all that time, effort and money learning a CMA, if you're not going to use what you're taught?
My own background in CMA, is primarily in 'harder' systems.
Lau Gar, Hung Gar, Wing Chun.
Now, if for example, in a kickboxing match, I was out working my opponent in the clinch, how would you know if that was because of my sensitivity training or not?



As I said, I didn't mention anything about sitting under waterfalls, or strapping weights to your penis. I don't see why these things were brought into a discussion on application?
.....because anything other than application, is under scrutiny in this kind of discussion.
The CMA suffer the criticism that they are overly mystified.
Too much time being spent on things that have no apparent value.



I'm not implying that "high level" means supernatural abilities. I'm talking purely in terms of fighting skills.
Ok, but like I said;Can you point me to anyone displaying "high level martial ability" outside of a demonstration?

I know, as well as the next person that applications used in sparring or a fight will not look perfect, but they should be to some degree recognisable. There should be some kind of fighting stratergy that the style uses, as opposed to throwing punches and kicks, hoping that one or two will land.
You think there's no strategy in kickboxing?
If you look at the original kickboxers, people like say Benny Urquidez, would you say he threw away his Karate when he put gloves on?



Why spend all that time and money learning something, then not using it when you need to?
My point is more along the lines of; Why spend time and money on something that is missunderstood in relation to its efficacy in the realms of human conflict.

Hi Lob.
Ball's in your court.

Here is the post that my first post was a response to:


Many people say they train Gung Fu but when it comes to fighting(non ring sports) they adopt the classic ''kickboxing'' stance. There is nothing wrong with sparring w/gloves and training in ring sport methods(I enjoy these methods myself), however we drill and practice our ''Gung Fu'' techniques over and over so we can use our Gung Fu in a real life situation.
Has anyone on this board employed their techniques in a real situation dangerous or otherwise succesfully without resorting to basic kickboxing techniques?
I am interested to hear some of the different perspectives and styles of posters on this board.
I will post some of mine as the thread hopefully goes on.

Peace.


Just to try and place some context onto my post.

That's a bit clearer.
Cheers.

Many people say they train Gung Fu but when it comes to fighting(non ring sports) they adopt the classic ''kickboxing'' stance.


One core SD idea that's being put forward, is the 'Fence'.
Different from the boxers guard, CMA refer to 'Man Sau/Wu Sau'

There's a guarding hand and an asking, or questioning hand.

Never intended to be a fixed position, because the function is more important than the form.

Has anyone on this board employed their techniques in a real situation dangerous or otherwise succesfully without resorting to basic kickboxing techniques?
I could say yes to that.
Having spent a long term lecturing people on how fragile the 'fist' actually is, I palm heeled one of two assailants, dropping the first with a front kick/spinning back kick.
Those were options I didn't have before CMA training (though I reckon I'd have dropped them with something else without).
Not much like kickboxing.

Firstly you have to distinguish between sports and fighting arts. If a fighting art is diluted to be used in sport, then it will basically look the same as all the other opponents, Like Mule said, it depends on the rules.

Even things like MMA has rules, and its a sport that's pretty close to the real thing. Fighting Arts like Aikido, Wing Chun and a lot of the CMa's art meant to help you defend yourself in real fight situations, something you cannot mimic in the sporting arena.

First, my best regards to all the people in this topic, and second this is my personal opinion, not offense here to anyone...

I agree with distinguish between sports and real fighting (I means street assaults and war), there is one BIG difference between combat sports (like boxing, judo, NHB, etc) and real fighting, is THE RULES, because the most savage tournament in the world have RULES to protect fighters lives and therefore a LOT of techniques are forbidden (the same techniques that guarantee your victory on the streets ....LOL)

Another important thing is mindset, specially the "killer instinct", it's not the same to fight on UFC than to survive a street assault by 4 skinheads armed with knifes, bottles and baseball bats... and I don't criticize the NHB fighters, to the contrary I admire them, (in fact I'm a big fan of UFC and Pride). But training for selfprotection isn't the same of training for competition... and that difference is the one who can save your life...

About "traditional" martial arts (kung fu, karate, hapkido, daito ryu, jujitsu, etc etc) I think the more "traditional" the art is the less useful is for the streets, because a lot of them are still "dreaming" on their origins instead of evolving and growing to modern day situations... that's why a LOT of martial artist have been soundly defeated by streetfighters.

But also I agree with Bailu Taiji on one thing; you must try to use your art ALWAYS, and not to learn all the Choy Li Fut forms and applications but to use Sanda when you've to compete or fight... the main reason is people who do that don't have all the necessary knowledge of the system they practice. That's why I choose Wing Tzun long time ago, because you CAN fight using it from the beginning...

Again this are my opinions and ideas only... take care

I've just got a copy of my teachers new book. Needless to say, in the first few pages, it's already completely changed my perception of kungfu!
Once I've read some more, I'll post some more info!