Tartovski wrote:
All I can go on is what I've been told, which is from an ex WT guy who got to 12th level.
As far as I am concerned, in WC you are only as good as you are on any given day and accolades or years spent mean zip.



I also know someone who trains in it and from what they've said they do zero sparring,
This is common and in some cases for a good reason.


and also "anti-grappling" stuff.
I did Anti-Grappling with the guy who coined the term, Emin Boztepe.
While there are a lot of internet blowbags who like to pull down anything they don't like the sound of, what I will say, is that the stuff I did with Emin was identical to what my MMA coach taught in avoiding someonetrying to acheive position.

Just because a lot of uninformed people say something, does not mean you should blindly jump on the band wagon.

mule wrote:
As far as I am concerned, in WC you are only as good as you are on any given day and accolades or years spent mean zip.

Given the fact that he'd work his way up to instructor level, I'd say he would be a very good place to comment on the style of Wing Tsun. ie this is not some MMA nut-rider who'd done 3 lessons of WT and decided it was rubbish.

This is common and in some cases for a good reason.

I can see good reasons for avoiding certain techniques in sparring, or controlling contact whilst sparring but I cannot see one good reason for doing no sparring at all.
Especially when claiming how effective an art is at fighting, which the WT lot do as far as I know.

I did Anti-Grappling with the guy who coined the term, Emin Boztepe.
While there are a lot of internet blowbags who like to pull down anything they don't like the sound of, what I will say, is that the stuff I did with Emin was identical to what my MMA coach taught in avoiding someone trying to acheive position.

Like I said, I can only go from what I've been told. In regards to anti-grappling stuff - I'd heard it was more of a case of "we don't need to practise groundwork because our techniques will end the fight before it goes that far".

Anyway, I might well be meeting up with the person I know who teaches it - So then I'll be able to give a more informed opinion.

Tartovski wrote:


Given the fact that he'd work his way up to instructor level, I'd say he would be a very good place to comment on the style of Wing Tsun. ie this is not some MMA nut-rider who'd done 3 lessons of WT and decided it was rubbish.
What about the other twelve or so lineage tree's in Wing Chun.
Did you know there were some that involved no Chi Sao.
I asked the very same question of a Bullsh*do nutrider who also posts on MAP as a self considered expert, who'd held up Bullsh*do.org as being some kind of reliable resource.
When you approach these issues from a psuedo-informed perspective, then you add to the confusion rather than removing it IMO.


I can see good reasons for avoiding certain techniques in sparring, or controlling contact whilst sparring but I cannot see one good reason for doing no sparring at all.
I'll give you one very good reason.
If you want to learn from sparring, then it's better to spar with people who are either untrained, or who are learning a different system from you.
That is when you strip down what you have learned into fundamental principles and start to learn what it is you are really being taught.
If you only spar within the confines of your own system, you learn very little.

Especially when claiming how effective an art is at fighting, which the WT lot do as far as I know.
It's bums on seats marketing and that's been going on forever.



Like I said, I can only go from what I've been told. In regards to anti-grappling stuff - I'd heard it was more of a case of "we don't need to practise groundwork because our techniques will end the fight before it goes that far".
See, to me, that's the problem with looking for negatives in things.
If Boztepe or my MMA coach were to call this Anti-Rape training, would you or significant others find it any more acceptable?

Anyway, I might well be meeting up with the person I know who teaches it - So then I'll be able to give a more informed opinion.
About his beliefs?

mule wrote:
What about the other twelve or so lineage tree's in Wing Chun.

What about them?
I was talking specifically about Wing Tsun (as that was the original post was asking about), and the guy from MAP's experience therein.


I'll give you one very good reason.
If you want to learn from sparring, then it's better to spar with people who are either untrained, or who are learning a different system from you.
That is when you strip down what you have learned into fundamental principles and start to learn what it is you are really being taught.
If you only spar within the confines of your own system, you learn very little.

How is that a reason to NOT spar?
Surely that is giving a very good reason to spar - and to spar with lots of different people?
You might learn "very little" if you only spar within one system, but surely that's better than learning nothing?

It's bums on seats marketing and that's been going on forever.

Fair point actually!!

If Boztepe or my MMA coach were to call this Anti-Rape training, would you or significant others find it any more acceptable?

No?

About his beliefs?

No, about the system. I'm hoping to spar with him, see what they do how they train.

And to clarify: The person posting on MAP (the 12th level guy who left) and the person I know who still does it, are two different people.

Tartovski wrote:

How is that a reason to NOT spar?
Surely that is giving a very good reason to spar - and to spar with lots of different people?[/quote]
'Outwith' your system.



No?
Why?

mule wrote:
'Outwith' your system.

Sorry, you've lost me here, what do you mean??



Why?

Why not?

I just don't see how renaming it changes anything?

Tartovski wrote:


Sorry, you've lost me here, what do you mean??
Well, let's say for example, you were to take up BJJ.
If all you did, was spar with people who only did BJJ, then you would develop bad habits.
It's exactly the same in WC.




Why not?
I just don't see how renaming it changes anything?
What needs to be changed?
Have you trained any anti-grappling?
Do you know what it's about?

Hey Tartovski

Sorry it's taken so long to reply, i'm in Aus and NZ at the moment on hols.

In reply to a few of your queries:

1: Why different names

I've always seen it as a chance for the MAs practitioners to divert from the common form and develop new ideas and practices. For example in WT there is Blitz Defense which Grandmaster Kernspecht developed which is Defense against modern Bar/Street Fights with focus on taking the opponent out quickly and with least amount of damage as well as being aware of what body language to use and what to say so that those witnessing know you are the victim even though you may strike first (modern Legal aspects etc).

As far as i know Wing Chun do not teach this. Hence the need for seperate schools. This also means that there is a consistency to what is taught in various schools.

2: Sparring

As Wing Chun/WT etc is not a Traditional Martial Art there are many things it does differently. WT is more of a martial discipline and many of its techniques are designed to incapacitate and cause damage. Therefore traditional sparring would be both very dangerous and none useful. Certain aspects can be 'sparred' however doing so looses the effectivness of the discipline and makes it less than it should.

Some argue that Chi Sao and Lat Sao are sparring but this is a misconception. Both are training the body to be sensitive to the touch and pressure of the partner/opponent. This allows the body to register the direction/speed/pressure of an upcoming strike/movement and instictively begins the 'appropriate' defense/attack. I find this training is most effective when training with many different partners.

3. Anti Grappling

We definitely do Anti grappling in WT as part of the training as well as ground work.

Seems odd to me that your friend would spend the time and effort to get to top student grade in a Martial Art that he does not seem satisfied with.

Thankfully there are enough MAs to suit nearly everyone

tomprice2k wrote:

2: Sparring

As Wing Chun/WT etc is not a Traditional Martial Art there are many things it does differently. WT is more of a martial discipline and many of its techniques are designed to incapacitate and cause damage. Therefore traditional sparring would be both very dangerous and none useful. Certain aspects can be 'sparred' however doing so looses the effectivness of the discipline and makes it less than it should.

Could you explain the difference between a martial art and a martial discipline to me? Sounds like a semantic argument to me.

As for techniques that are designed to cause damage - what, unlike all the moves in Muay Thai? They cause damage and they seem to spar rather alot.
Exactly what moves do you do that are too dangerous to spar?

Exactly what moves do you do that are too dangerous to spar?


Good question.....

In WIng CHun there are a multitude od strikes you simply could not spar with. Like Eye strikes, pressure point striking. Wing Chun is Fighting System if you ask me, you cannot put it in competition, it is not a sport.........

strikes you could not spar with

Well coming from the TKD background we mix up practical self defense training with some strike practice...

However, when we spar we still are using kicking and punching techniques...after a while you learn how to move with an opponent and I cant see how that can be replicated without actually getting stuck in?