Sorry i completely didn't reply to you post and forgot about it.
The below is taken from an editorial by Keith Kerspecht who is head of the European branch of WT. It explains it 10 times better than my ramblings.
"WingTsun is an approx. 300 year-old Chinese survival system which is very different from the conventional martial arts, e.g. by not being the sum of its techniques, i.e. it has no fixed repertoire of specific techniques.
Instead WT has a concept, or rather a kind of philosophy, on whose basis an advanced fighter is able to create his own movements in combat. A WT fighter therefore has no finished techniques which he then adapts to the relevant fighting situation, bur rather a flexible concept, a form of strategy, which acts like a categorical imperative or golden rule and helps him to come up with exactly the right, 100-percent suitable answer to an attack"
This also explains why its not really an effective Sparring art
"I have been the whole day without eating, and the whole night without sleeping — occupied with thinking. It was of no use. The better plan is to learn."
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"I have been the whole day without eating, and the whole night without sleeping — occupied with thinking. It was of no use. The better plan is to learn."
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I just wrote a long reply to this, but it got swallowed by my PC. I'll try to redo it properly when I have time.
But in short my response was that that article is a total load of management-speak garbage, written by someone who clearly doesn't know what the golden rule or categorical imperative is.
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"I have been the whole day without eating, and the whole night without sleeping — occupied with thinking. It was of no use. The better plan is to learn."
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Really?
Pray do tell how the phrase "golden rule" can be applied to Martial arts then. Since the golden rule is essentially "treat others how you would wish to be treated yourself" I can't see how that applies to the comment that it "helps him to come up with exactly the right, 100-percent suitable answer to an attack."
Next we have "categorical imperative" now, It SOUNDS impressive, I'll grant you - but since it's a concept that pretty much exclusively applies to Kantian Moral philosophy, I think you'll have a job of showing how it applies
Ok, if we ignore the fact that Kant was talking about morals it can be summed up as "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law." This COULD be applied to martial arts i guess, when you act, make it so it could be a universal law for self defense. HOWEVER, the entire thrust of the piece if counter to that idea of a universal law. It clearly states "the WingTsun fighter does not already have a fixed, preserved answer for which he seeks a question, but instead creates a tailor-made answer to each question " Which isn't a universal law, you have to agree.
The rest of it is just guff. i'll ignore the pseudo zen/taoist stuff as I could care less, but some of it is just simply wrong:
"The more advanced (intermediate) WT user is able to use the right brain hemisphere and left eye to intuitively anticipate the other’s intention to attack, enabling him to attack as the opponent’s own attack commences."
HOW? I'd love to see that tested under lab conditions. In fact I might show that to a few psychologists I know who can probably explain why that's nonsense.
"But because the preparation to attack (even though the attacker is not conscious of it) requires more time than the reaction, the defender is faster than the attacker."
This is simply nonsense.
Anyway, going back to sparring - if WT is so amazing at adaptation, i find it Extremely odd that it can't adapt to sparring.
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The rest of it is just guff. i'll ignore the pseudo zen/taoist stuff as I could care less, but some of it is just simply wrong:
"The more advanced (intermediate) WT user is able to use the right brain hemisphere and left eye to intuitively anticipate the other’s intention to attack, enabling him to attack as the opponent’s own attack commences."
HOW? I'd love to see that tested under lab conditions. In fact I might show that to a few psychologists I know who can probably explain why that's nonsense.
I believe he's talking about 'eye accessing cues', but to me, those defeat the purpose of Chi Sau.
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Tartovski wrote:
Anyway, going back to sparring - if WT is so amazing at adaptation, i find it Extremely odd that it can't adapt to sparring.
How does sparring work? Isn't it using techniques to score points against you opposition?
So how would you score against using principles and concepts instead of techniques and 'moves'. To Spar in WT would mean reducing it to a none useful set of motions and techniques. I don't learn WT so i can practice moves against other WT.
I understand you might not understand or care about some of the more spiritual/moral sides of his editorial, and this can be seen by this quote i'll ignore the pseudo zen/taoist stuff as I could care less . But thats all part of WT. The physical is just the 1st level.
HOW? I'd love to see that tested under lab conditions. In fact I might show that to a few psychologists I know who can probably explain why that's nonsense. Feel free although i believe KK consults many experts in many areas when researching these things.
"But because the preparation to attack (even though the attacker is not conscious of it) requires more time than the reaction, the defender is faster than the attacker."
Why is this nonsense? If an attacker pulls back to punch, this is an attack preparation. If the WT combatant is suitably sensitive and instinctively aware of this movement and the opening it provides then of course his defense/attack is going to be quicker.
"I have been the whole day without eating, and the whole night without sleeping — occupied with thinking. It was of no use. The better plan is to learn."
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tomprice2k wrote: How does sparring work? Isn't it using techniques to score points against you opposition?
So how would you score against using principles and concepts instead of techniques and 'moves'. To Spar in WT would mean reducing it to a none useful set of motions and techniques. I don't learn WT so i can practice moves against other WT.
Please explain exactly what a "principle" and "concept" is compared to a technique? At the end of the day, you are going to be throwing some strikes (or some takedowns, or holds, or whatever) - all of which could be scored.
So what happens if someone trained in WT attacks you then? you fall to pieces?
Why is this nonsense? If an attacker pulls back to punch, this is an attack preparation. If the WT combatant is suitably sensitive and instinctively aware of this movement and the opening it provides then of course his defense/attack is going to be quicker.
"then of course"? Are you sure? what if the attacker DOESN'T telegraph his move? A reaction, by definition, is going to be slower than an action.
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This is all getting very negative which is totally not what this thread was about. I didn't want to get into an argument with anyone about why they think an WT is flawed or wrong. I prefer to look at positive aspects but if you want to continue to troll on about how this and that is 'Bull' feel free but it'll be one sided.
I don't mean to be rude but i've always found that to overly criticize something when you don't have any experience or real knowledge about it pretty pointless and counter productive. Most MAs are a lot deeper than they appear when you first look and if they were ineffective for the purpose they are around for then they'd have died out long ago.
"I have been the whole day without eating, and the whole night without sleeping — occupied with thinking. It was of no use. The better plan is to learn."
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tomprice2k wrote: This is all getting very negative which is totally not what this thread was about. I didn't want to get into an argument with anyone about why they think an WT is flawed or wrong. I prefer to look at positive aspects but if you want to continue to troll on about how this and that is 'Bull' feel free but it'll be one sided.
The fact you are unwilling or unable to answer straight forward questions/critisisms I think speaks volumes. It reminds me alot of arguing with thiests about religious belief: Though say alot of rambling stuff which when critised they are unable to back up (or even adequatly explain) and when you ask for a straight answer they refuse saying people are "missing the point".
Most MAs are a lot deeper than they appear when you first look and if they were ineffective for the purpose they are around for then they'd have died out long ago.
Oh dear. That old chesnut. Oddly enough, it's another classic argument used by the faithful to defend their ideas - and also totally fundamentally flawed. Just because something is old, it doesn't make it's claims true.
Take Homeopathy - it's been around since the 18th century, and guess what? It's nonsense. The claims it makes are false, and are demonstrable so with modern science - yet it STILL persists.
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Unfortunately I've met many people like you on forums previously who will argue the smallest point to the longest lengths just because they've got nothing better to do or a bug to bear. I've found the best way is to ignore them.
The thread wasn't about someone with issues about WT (Which all info he knows about is from his mate who didn't like it but still decided to spend 3-4 years training in it) and i'm not prepared to sit and argue against every little point you come up with. Pointless and boring.
This is my final post in the Thread which i may have to try and get removed as its purpose has been diluted.
"I have been the whole day without eating, and the whole night without sleeping — occupied with thinking. It was of no use. The better plan is to learn."
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