I believe both sides are correct on this basis. Yes you can spar in wing chun its just most schools choose not to as they dont know how to do it safely.
Principles in my mind is a form guideline, in our system of wing chun this is simple. If an attacker/s decides to engage in combat with you and you have no way out of it, your one and ONLY intention is to take them as quickly as possible by ANY means necessary period. If this means head butts, eye gauges, breaking joints, etc. so be it. This requires a certain amount of mental training and discipline. When you spar there are certain rules and guidelines both parties agree to i.e no strikes to the groin, biting etc. If a less than experienced practitioner has to switch of a list of options at their disposal are they 100% focused ?
On the other had i believe to can spar safely if you have trained to a reasonable level. When you understand energy and body structure your mental concentration is not diminished by a lack of options. This is essential for real life scenarios when you need to deal with idiots on the street without landing up in front of a judge
This is my final post in the Thread which i may have to try and get removed as its purpose has been diluted.
It's accepted practice at this point, for forum Admin to split the thread, allowing both the original and tangential discussions to occur.
Dear Tart does love a good arguement (eh Dave?)
I'll pick up on this if you don't mind;
Please explain exactly what a "principle" and "concept" is compared to a technique?
C'mon Tart, surely you're being deliberately obtuse here?
I'm sure I've covered this ground with you elsewhere already.
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mule wrote: Dear Tart does love a good arguement (eh Dave?)
I'll pick up on this if you don't mind;
Please explain exactly what a "principle" and "concept" is compared to a technique?
C'mon Tart, surely you're being deliberately obtuse here?
I'm sure I've covered this ground with you elsewhere already.
No obtuseness intended, though I could've phrased it better I admit. My point being that TomPrice2K (and the article he linked to back up his point) seem to be saying that since WT doesn't use techniques but rather "concepts" and "principles" it's somehow different from all other martial arts, it's 100% suitable for adaptive self defense, and therefore you are unable to spar with it.
My point is that this is clearly bunk. Let's look at the concept of constant forward movement (which exists withing WC/WT - AFAIK) - how on earth does that NOT translate into a technique? e.g. If you are throwing chain-punches whilst moving forwards, you are throwing techniques that a)can be countered and b) could be "scored" in sparring. Just like every single other martial art there...
I'm not saying sparring is the be-all and end-all of self-defense, far from it. However I do think it's very useful tool, and i'd be dubious of any system that claims to be the ultimate in self-defense despite the fact it never tries to apply those skills in anything even approaching a resisting environment.
(and no, i'm not touching "aliveness" with a bargepole!)
Anyway it's a moot point. TomPrice2K has made it clear he has no interest in actually discussing his style, and has decided after 5 months training that everything he is told is true. Like I said before the arguments sound VERY similar to thiests defending the indefendable.
Ah well, never mind.
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No obtuseness intended, though I could've phrased it better I admit. My point being that TomPrice2K (and the article he linked to back up his point) seem to be saying that since WT doesn't use techniques but rather "concepts" and "principles" it's somehow different from all other martial arts, it's 100% suitable for adaptive self defense, and therefore you are unable to spar with it.Well that's one interpretation of what he said.
I'd say WC makes 'more of a meal' of it's concepts and principles than most other arts (except perhaps Choi Kwang Do).
At the end of the day though, it's the principles and concepts that are important, not the techniques, as they are/should be just expressions of the art.
My point is that this is clearly bunk. Let's look at the concept of constant forward movement (which exists withing WC/WT - AFAIK) - how on earth does that NOT translate into a technique? e.g. If you are throwing chain-punches whilst moving forwards, you are throwing techniques that a)can be countered and b) could be "scored" in sparring. Just like every single other martial art there...Thing is, you can express that concept without throwing a single technique.
I'm not saying sparring is the be-all and end-all of self-defense, far from it. However I do think it's very useful tool, and i'd be dubious of any system that claims to be the ultimate in self-defense despite the fact it never tries to apply those skills in anything even approaching a resisting environment.
(and no, i'm not touching "aliveness" with a bargepole!)
Testing is optional.
It's a choice made by the individual at the end of the day.
Anyway it's a moot point. TomPrice2K has made it clear he has no interest in actually discussing his style, and has decided after 5 months training that everything he is told is true. Like I said before the arguments sound VERY similar to thiests defending the indefendable.
Ah well, never mind.
Maybe go back and look at what the original post was about?
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As you travel to the mountain, there may be people ahead of you. You may pass some of these people on the way, and some of them may pass you. You are all going to the same place, so it is as well to be civil to each other on the journey!
Good luck on your journey, I hope that our paths cross, and we may travel together for a time!
If you touch my Llama, I WILL kill you!
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Thought i'd pop up again (fancied carrying on the discussion now i'm not in a bad mood thanks to work. Sorry for getting uppety)
Apologies if you thought i was throwing a hissy fit. I just can't stand pedantic, arguing for arguments sake. Perhaps i just feel a bit frustrated that i'm unable to explain my points clearly enough for you.
Anywho i'd just like to say that obviously i don't believe everything i'm told, i always research and find out different points of view and sure i've only been training 6 months but if i'd been researching any subject for 6 months i'd like to think i'd have a fair grasp of the basics and apply common sense and previous knowledge as well. I'm an Athiest by the way
The point with the sparring i was trying to make is that using concepts and principles means that if i use a move/technique that isn't necesserily in WC/WT in a Sparring situation but uses the WT/WC Concept and Principles then it is still WT but might be illegal or wrong in the eyes of the Judge/Referee (if there) and thus down scored or not scored no matter how effective it is.
I don't want to have to be mentally hamstrung by limiting myself to certain techniques or moves when in a real confrontation i could more effectively or quickly take out my opponent with a move that i do not Spar with. For example if i am attacked and where i should have instinctively used and open hand 'chop' to the neck i end up using a less effective punch to the head (due to not being able to use it in sparring situations then i put myself at an advantage).
I agree sparring can and is very useful for a lot of matrial arts but there are just to many disadvantages to using in in WT practice.
"I have been the whole day without eating, and the whole night without sleeping — occupied with thinking. It was of no use. The better plan is to learn."
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Sorry it's taken so long to reply, i'm in Aus and NZ at the moment on hols.
In reply to a few of your queries:
1: Why different names
I've always seen it as a chance for the MAs practitioners to divert from the common form and develop new ideas and practices. For example in WT there is Blitz Defense which Grandmaster Kernspecht developed which is Defense against modern Bar/Street Fights with focus on taking the opponent out quickly and with least amount of damage as well as being aware of what body language to use and what to say so that those witnessing know you are the victim even though you may strike first (modern Legal aspects etc).
As far as i know Wing Chun do not teach this. Hence the need for seperate schools. This also means that there is a consistency to what is taught in various schools.
2: Sparring
As Wing Chun/WT etc is not a Traditional Martial Art there are many things it does differently. WT is more of a martial discipline and many of its techniques are designed to incapacitate and cause damage. Therefore traditional sparring would be both very dangerous and none useful. Certain aspects can be 'sparred' however doing so looses the effectivness of the discipline and makes it less than it should.
Some argue that Chi Sao and Lat Sao are sparring but this is a misconception. Both are training the body to be sensitive to the touch and pressure of the partner/opponent. This allows the body to register the direction/speed/pressure of an upcoming strike/movement and instictively begins the 'appropriate' defense/attack. I find this training is most effective when training with many different partners.
3. Anti Grappling
We definitely do Anti grappling in WT as part of the training as well as ground work.
Seems odd to me that your friend would spend the time and effort to get to top student grade in a Martial Art that he does not seem satisfied with.
Thankfully there are enough MAs to suit nearly everyone
ahhh Mr Price, misguided in your youth, Latso is Free Fighting, you will strat hitting the crap out of eachother in Phase 3 believe me.
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"If you are attacked, your attacker is on the floor bleeding and you cannot remember what you did, this is WingTsun"
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"I have been the whole day without eating, and the whole night without sleeping — occupied with thinking. It was of no use. The better plan is to learn."
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just thought I’d put my spin on why i don't endorse sparring.
1) Physical confrontation for the average Joe is rare, why do a martial art that puts you into harms way more then average daily life will
2) I’ve seen a Grand Master demonstrate in a seminar WT on a student wearing sparring equipment, the guy was knocked unconscious and had to be rushed to hospital, I’m no Grand Master however i have no wish to put any of my student it that potential harm.
3) Sparring narrows you peripheral vision and gets you used to fighting 1 on 1, this can lead to you receiving blind side punches as well as decreasing your awareness if you are facing potential multiple aggressors. www.wtyork.com
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"If you are attacked, your attacker is on the floor bleeding and you cannot remember what you did, this is WingTsun"
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1) Physical confrontation for the average Joe is rare, why do a martial art that puts you into harms way more then average daily life will
I must take you for a night out in Glasgow sometime.
2) I’ve seen a Grand Master demonstrate in a seminar WT on a student wearing sparring equipment, the guy was knocked unconscious and had to be rushed to hospital, I’m no Grand Master however i have no wish to put any of my student it that potential harm.So how do your students know if what they are being taught will be of any use to them outsied of a WT environment?
3) Sparring narrows you peripheral vision and gets you used to fighting 1 on 1, this can lead to you receiving blind side punches as well as decreasing your awareness if you are facing potential multiple aggressors.
Sorry, but I couldn't agree less.
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As you travel to the mountain, there may be people ahead of you. You may pass some of these people on the way, and some of them may pass you. You are all going to the same place, so it is as well to be civil to each other on the journey!
Good luck on your journey, I hope that our paths cross, and we may travel together for a time!
If you touch my Llama, I WILL kill you!
The administrator has disabled public write access.
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