Too much emphasis is placed on the "hidden secrets" of kata, and not enough on the fundamental techniques upon which kata are built. Sure, kata contain a richness of knowledge about techniques and strategies, but just as one wouldn't expect to develop skill in mae geri solely by "unlocking its secrets" in kata, one shouldn't seek to learn pressure points this way. To some degree, pressure points in kata are better served as an expression of what one has already learned through the study of anatomy, physiology, and the proper execution of individual techniques.

Muay thai is a good example of a martial art that approaches pressure points (such as the peroneal nerve of the outer thigh or the axillary nerve of the upper deltoid) through the application of basic techniques such as shin kicks and knee and elbow strikes. Muay boran, the ancestor of muay thai, has forms that encapsulate the tactics involved in striking pressure points, but the assumption is that the practitioner fully understands how and why to strike the pressure points in the first place.

nicely put, tonyli

With regards to pressure points - For example knock outs, Ive had some experience with George Dillman & from what ive seen (& in my opinion) there is a lot of subconcious involvement ie- you are expecting something specific to happen & [in your mind] it does.

I think its all a bit "HO HUM" & untill you experience something concrete for yourself, maybe you could adopt the same opinion.

"BELIEVE NOTHING OF WHAT YOU HEAR & ONLY HALF OF WHAT YOU SEE"
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HBXXA5xhcQ0

Dillman has no real skill in this particular area. But if you spend time with someone like Master Seiyu Oyata (an old friend of mine), you'll understand that it's very, very real-

The area of pressure point fighting is very facinating. Some aspects make complete and total sense, others are a bit far fetched, but I'm not ready to discount them and I'm glad that there does not appear to be many practitioners that are truely highly skilled. As Sifu Starr points out in his first book, that is a good thing.

PP's is more a 'western' concept, traditionally you have vital points, you stop the tendon/muscle function, you stop blood flow, air flow and energy flow. Many PP's are simply nerve matrix where 3 or more nerves cross, if you can take pain they are easy to not react to. If your posture, breathing and mental awareness/focus are correct the opponent cannot make anything work on you. If you then apply them to someone who doesn't have these harmonies they will work better on them.

I've had 'experts' try them on me and none of them worked.

Rely on PP's and you are bound to fail against a reasonable scrapper, use them judiciously on certain types of people and only as an 'extra' and they can be effective.

I've seen scrappers and highly-conditioned MMA fighters fall prey to well-placed elbow strikes to the temple; knee and shin kicks to the peroneal nerve of the outer thigh; and be temporarily unable to use an arm after a good elbow strike to the brachial artery between the biceps and triceps. One look at how the whole arm turns black the next day after damaging the brachial artery or basilic vein by breaking it between the humerus and an elbow strike, and I'd say that some pressure points cause more than just a sensation of pain.

But this is a world away from the invisible fireballs some people claim to use to knock people down at a distance.

As a student, I Feel I would use pressure points as a last resort so to speak, Probably becaus they are harder to practice for long periods of time, Im more reliant on the solid basic techniques.

However I like what tonyli had to say, because acctully placing those basic strikes intelligently is important, an ebow strike for example may work well on its own, but as you said if you can place it in the temple, why not?

The thing is when utilizing motor nerve or pressure points, or the meridians you can not hold the mindset that is needed to prevent all of them from working. A person's mindset can leave them vulnerable for a different one. But in essence Steve Rowe is correct Don't rely on them utilize proper mechanics and movements to control a subject, the points are bonuses. Some are really nice. THe common peroneal is one that very few can take a full blow to and not be effected in some way.

When people talk of PP's they always seem to think along the lines of knock outs etc.. I think of them as a small part of a much bigger picture, similar in a way to a jab or feint, its not a final move, just a transitional one that allows me to take my opponent apart one peice at a time. In Ju Jitsu ground work I use them regularly to counter affect the opposite side of the body in order to give me a better postion. Attacking one side of the body causes an opposite reaction in the other side. In a similar way you would use the point of the elbow on the femeral nerve to affect a release from the guard etc..

Sorry, I know its not the point of the topic (we dont do Kata's) just wanted to add my thoughts!

As a student of Karate and Aikido I can say that in a kata point of view, there are in fact elements that are locked in the Kata, someone who just repeats it to learn the forms and sequences will not understand the kata fully. Kata must be an intimate part of the training, one must feel every bit of the kata and use the mind. A kata is not just a bunch of moves put together its effectivaly one move so to speak. My Sensei says many will practise the kata but only some student will earn the key to unlock the true meaning of kata, and that comes with time.
In regards to the PP, I didn't even consider that I might be attack weak points of the body so now next time I practise I shall be looking at this in more detail!! of course I would be placing an elbow to the side of the head for e.g but never really looked upon it on that level so nice one peeps thats opened my eyes a bit more!

PP is used in some Aikido techniques aswell, but I have found that some people its easy to find and other not so easy, with training you'll learn to feel it more I guess but there is no guarantee it will work.

Are PP similar to anatomical weak points? i.e. a nerve point on the forearm as a PP but the temple on the side of the head a weak point?

Our anatomy naturally has weak points, in fact MA tend to train and exercise these points more so that the average athlete, Is the side of the neck the same as an accu point in the back?
In regards to labeing PP or WP (weak point)?[/b]

It is a very controversial subject and one I readily put to many of the martial arts instructors I interviewed for a book I am currently researching on martial arts subculture in the UK. I had some great replies. Russell Stutely's response seemed very sensible, arguing that PPs weren't pin-point areas and were the "last 5%" of an unarmed fighting arsenal i.e. they improved on the solid striking and grappling techniques rather than should be used as a substitute.

I am very sceptical of PPs on the whole. I can go with the vital areas argument fairly well such as hitting someone on the "button" of the jaw to cause brain shake or hit them in the solar plexus to cause internal disruption or the aforementioned Thai leg kick. There are countless case studies to back this idea up as an interpretation of PPs working under stress, but such methods don't need to be taught as a PP concept. Other "add ons" like attacking soft areas of the body don't need a genius to figure out the advantage they can give - kids work this out scrapping with their friends (and enemies). However, when we get into PP touch KO land I think we begin walking down the dangerous path of "mass hysteria" and the force of personality. Notice how the people who get knocked out by this stuff are almost always students or people who have bought into or, at least, half bought into the idea in the first place. The Derren Brown stuff posted on here is spot on to illustrate this point, as is the following footage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

Please note that the martial arts instructor pushing this stuff is big on the "hidden in kata" argument.