I agree - Dillman's stuff is way over the edge. However, Master Seiyu Oyata's technique is authentic although he doesn't market it like Dillman tries to do...

More thread necromancy for me...

I've trained with one of Mr. Oyata's 6th dan instructors. Their view is, for the most part, that the body is one big "pressure point." They make a big distinction between atemi and kyusho, and it would seem that Dillman's camp believes everything is kyusho.

Further, you never see Dillman, or any of his subordinate instructors, demonstrate their skills on anything other than a compliant participant while they stand stock still. Nobody is coming in, full tilt boogie, trying to punch a hole in the Dillmanite's chest. They just stand there and get hit. I'm reasonably sure that, minus the pseudo-acupuncture, color-by-numbers voodoo, I could still K.O. someone standing there waiting to take the hit.

If you can't do it at full speed, you can't do it. If it doesn't work at full speed, it doesn't work. Move on to something that does work and spend your time with that instead.

If you can't do it at full speed, you can't do it. If it doesn't work at full speed, it doesn't work. Move on to something that does work and spend your time with that instead.

Well partner compliance is about safe learning in the training hall not killing each other by racing in and getting smashed in the mouth.

What exercises in this area would you recommend for realistic training?

Hello everybody and my 2 cents here... although I'm not practice karate or any other japanese art I think traditional katas are codified movements to solo training, but a lot of them have lost its real meaning and in some cases have been modified to look "well" in sport competition... it's the same case in kung fu, wushu and compulsory competition forms...

In the system I practice (Wing Tzun) every form is conceptual and not technical, and we train concepts instead of techniques, that's why there isn't hidden techniques or pressure point applications in the system. But also I think to use pressure points techniques in a real fight (who is chaotic, randomize and in movement) is almost impossible, I prefer to use impact zones, and manipulations that are more suitable to access at full speed...

Of course there're a LOT of subtle movements inside the katas/kuen in traditional martial arts, but it depends on the style you practice and the better the master is...

Take care to all

re the training and use of pressure points

firstly; there are any number of people out there now all over the world who are or claim to be high graded pressure point "specialists". some are legit, others! well you are always going to get bandwagon jumpers.

secondly; i think is still a lot of mystique surrounding the subject which i thinks is perpetuated to some degree by those people with such knowledge in order to protect their earning potential or hide their true colours.

thirdly; i think it is important in life to keep an open mind and this is as true for martial arts and the pressure point debate than for any other aspect of life.

from personal experience i can give the following.
last year i attended a seminar on PP given by an associate of George DILLMAN. it was an interesting 5 hr session and reasonably priced and i did take away some new MA knowledge and kate applications and meta nd trained with practitioners from other arts. however i formed the opinion that some of the PP Ko's that were demonstrated seemd to be effective either through compliance by the reciever or some form of play acting. when it came to trying some of the PP KO techniques myself along with a number of seminar attendees found it difficult if not impossible to get the intended outcome. when these problems were highlighted to the instructors all sorts of excuses were made. the instructors then tried those techniques on the attendees and they still failed to work.

i do believe there is some truth to the use of P and PP KO's but do have a little healthy sceptisism about what you read and are told. keep that open mind and continue researching and testing to find what works.

sorry this was a little lengthy and deep.

Hi everybody and I agree totally with Coops (BTW, are you the same Coops from selfprotection.lightbb.com?) in my modest opinion a good PP is a right cross to the jaw... because as I have said it's very difficult to locate and hit a specific point in the middle of a street fight...

2 things I'd like to say that both come out of The Way of Kata by Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder (shameless plug):

1) Pressure Points are a bonus. Use your techniques in a manner that allows them to work regardless of if you hit and point or not. In the Combat Hapkido Anatomical Targeting Strategies (read that as pressure points) curriculum, one of the things that is stressed is a level of technical redundancy. In other words, although the techniques are designed so that they hit certain anatomical points they are also designed so that if the point is ineffective it does not compromise the technique.

2) Your techniques must be made to work on an unwilling partner. Matt Stone already made this point, but I'd like to drive it home a little more. Dillman only does his stuff from a static position, and when it doesn't work he'll tell you it is because the other guy lifted his big toe. If someone moving their big toe nullifies the use of your techniue, then your technique is pretty much useless in the real world.

dmccarthy wrote:
2 things I'd like to say that both come out of The Way of Kata by Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder (shameless plug):

1) Pressure Points are a bonus. Use your techniques in a manner that allows them to work regardless of if you hit and point or not. In the Combat Hapkido Anatomical Targeting Strategies (read that as pressure points) curriculum, one of the things that is stressed is a level of technical redundancy. In other words, although the techniques are designed so that they hit certain anatomical points they are also designed so that if the point is ineffective it does not compromise the technique.

2) Your techniques must be made to work on an unwilling partner. Matt Stone already made this point, but I'd like to drive it home a little more. Dillman only does his stuff from a static position, and when it doesn't work he'll tell you it is because the other guy lifted his big toe. If someone moving their big toe nullifies the use of your techniue, then your technique is pretty much useless in the real world.

Totally agree with those points, and that's the way I think PP must be trained and integrated in martial art systems. It's like chin-na, who is present in every chinese martial art system but also it's taught as a system itself. My point of view is you must attack sensitive areas, not points, and against unwilling partners because that's the reality.

Take care to all

Pressure points are as already pointed out, the bounus. When you have a responder or you actually hit them, Oh, the beautiful things that happen. Like making Dan dance across the room or drop to his knees. But if I get a non-responder, like Mr. Long in my school, or you miss them (happens more times than not) then your technique still has to work. In the Combat Hapkido that I was taught and that I teach, techniques will still work, if he doesn't dance, no big deal, arm will still not function in the proper anatomical fashion.

pstarr wrote:
Dillman has no real skill in this particular area. But if you spend time with someone like Master Seiyu Oyata (an old friend of mine), you'll understand that it's very, very real-
I'm sooo glad you said that! As a student of one of Oyata sensei's Shin Shu Ho students, I must say that his techniques are beyond reproach and definitely work. With Oyata, it doesn't matter if you believe it will work or not, when you get hit, you go down!

Absolutely! I've seen him knock out unbelievers time and time again...and he loves to do it, too.

As someone mentioned earlier, a really good book that touches on this topic is 'The Way of Kata: A Comprehensive Guide to deciphering martial applications' by Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder (my second and third, in no particular order, favorite martial arts authors).
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1594390584?filterBy=addFourStar

Wilder has also written another book, 'The Way of Sanchin Kata: The application of power.'
http://www.amazon.com/Way-Sanchin-Kata-Application-Power/dp/1594390843/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t

I'm not a Goju stylist at all and I don't know Sanchin kata, but I learned a lot from these books!