i was reading bruce lee's book "jeet kune do" the other day and he has writen that basicaly a good martial artist dosnt practice patterns because the more you practice things the more they become like a reflex i.e. you should only practice singel moves or combos repetidaly so the become scond nature.


i was wondering what your views are on this statement (do you agree or not)?

Lets face it Bruce Lee thirty years on is still having a profound effect on martial arts popular culture.

People have used his name to build multi million pound enterprises and even at this years Seni Show in London there was a huge Bruce Lee Museum area. I love the quote from John Sexton who played the loveable rogue in Enter the Dragon. In an interview he once said Bruce Lee was just as happy talking about spirituality as he was driving around in a green rolls royce. Whatever the context I always question.

I think the BRUCE LEE library collection is a must have for any serious martial artist, what must be remembered however it was compiled by a researcher called John Little who was given exclusive access to go through Bruce Lees personal writings after his death.

So what I would say is form your own judgements. Personally I think patterns are good for you - I once had some random guy try to lean through my car window and the first thing I did without even thinking was an upper block.

haha, and its just come to me - he also says in that book:

I could beat any man.


The guy has had a massive influence on me but statements like that make me take everything with a pinch of salt.

I think Bruce Lee is one of many fighters in the world who could take me, lol. I also think he was very arrogant for saying he could beat any man, and I don't think he was right either. I also think both sided of the Bruce Lee arguement have taken him an unneccessary extreme. In the end, I think Bruce Lee was a man who had a vision. His vision worked for him and touched many others. To quote Forrest Gump, "And that's all I have to say about that."

IMHO patterns are also one of the things that set martial arts apart form just combat training. If you like its the art bit!

I think Bruce Lee's works have to be put in context really. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he writing at a time when people were trying to spar and fight with kata/form movements with the block and counter applications and also kata stance and footwork?

I'm not Bruce Lee's biggest fan, but thought the biography of him called "Fighting Spirit" by Bruce Thomas was interesting. The author is clearly a fan, but the book does try to give a picture of what he was really like rather than simply hero worshipping the legend.

Good point, SteveBruce! After WWII and into the 60s and 70s, the West's widespread enthusiasm for Asian martial arts was great, but there was a lot going wrong, too.

I think Bruce Lee's legacy lies in bringing the West closer to the old martial arts tradition, not farther. He was more of a researcher and guide than a visionary or trailblazer. After all, did he ever write anything original? No, instead he retold ageless Zen allegories about empty teacups and fingers pointing to the moon. And, in reference to £tbest£'s original post, he simply reminded the West about ancient concepts such as mushin (no-mindedness, or freedom from patterns).

Tesshu's doku sums up mushin just as well:

"Against an opponent's sword
Assume no stance
And keep your mind unmoved.
That is the place of victory. "

As does Takuan, speaking of the no-minded sword fighter:

"He just stands there with his sword which, forgetful of all technique, is ready only to follow the dictates of the subconscious."

Other peoples opinions of Brucie don't matter. The man is dead.

If you want to know if patterns/forms/katas are useless, then train hard and decide for yourself.
In my opinion, forms are vital, but they are not the whole picture. Forms are made up of techniques, techniques have applications and applications are made up of basic techniques and footwork. Forms can also provide ideas as towards combinations of techniques, as well as containing the fighting stratergies of a style.

Forms are more than a linked sequence of movements. But to get the most out of them, they require an open and inquiring mind.

Forms are a way we can pass on techniques to the next generation. They are not designed to be used in the sequence but to pluck out the technique that best fits the situation at the time.

Form and Kata are important as Camcookie said Forms are a way we can pass on techniques to the next generation.

This is very true, the secrets to kata come with time and further study for years and years. The litteral application of kata needs to be flexable, the strikes have alot of power in form, but this can be adapted to shorter distances for example providing that the timing and projection is the same. Power come from timing and softness so all these forms can be translated into practical situations depending on whats going around you but you must learn how to adaot them.

Bruce Lee had visions, as with most religion/philosophy people say the same thing in different ways. The main thing is that they are actually saying them and teaching them. Zen text may never get a look in from an average person but through a MA they can be educated and enlightened. Bruce Lee did this in an amazing way and brought a good way of MA and living to people who knew nothing about eastern ways.

PeteMills wrote:
Lets face it Bruce Lee thirty years on is still having a profound effect on martial arts popular culture.

People have used his name to build multi million pound enterprises and even at this years Seni Show in London there was a huge Bruce Lee Museum area. I love the quote from John Sexton who played the loveable rogue in Enter the Dragon. In an interview he once said Bruce Lee was just as happy talking about spirituality as he was driving around in a green rolls royce. Whatever the context I always question.

I think the BRUCE LEE library collection is a must have for any serious martial artist, what must be remembered however it was compiled by a researcher called John Little who was given exclusive access to go through Bruce Lees personal writings after his death.

So what I would say is form your own judgements. Personally I think patterns are good for you - I once had some random guy try to lean through my car window and the first thing I did without even thinking was an upper block.

haha, and its just come to me - he also says in that book:

I could beat any man.


The guy has had a massive influence on me but statements like that make me take everything with a pinch of salt.

crap. sorry guys, my n00bishness got in the way and i messed up using the quote tool. sorry