Su Lin wrote:


I agree with that too.As I said, I just havent seen many undisciplined mma fighters.
Really?
How about undisciplined wannabe's on forums Su?
Seen many of them?

mule wrote:
Su Lin wrote:


I agree with that too.As I said, I just havent seen many undisciplined mma fighters.
Really?
How about undisciplined wannabe's on forums Su?
Seen many of them?

I have seen many, from almost all ma's

Ignorance


Ok, lets find it...


No art in mixed martial arts

Other combat sports like boxing and tae kwon do have dignity, tradition, and honour, but the unadulterated violence of MMA has no cultural value at all


Derek Bates, Sports Writer



The world of sports is welcoming a vicious newcomer to the mainstream: mixed martial arts (MMA). This new combat sport has taken all the rules, honour, and tradition out of the classic combat sports and produced a ruthless bloodbath to poison viewers’ minds.

Yeah thats a little poetic, ill give you that

Even worse, the rise of MMA has coincided with the decline of a great and ancient sport: the sweet science of boxing. Where are the good old days when two people would clobber each other using just their fists while wearing padded gloves? Boxing is a fantastic sport because it takes physical endurance and strategy to defeat your opponent, not just a strong arm. Boxers spend months training their mind and bodies to prepare for a single fight, and, ignoring some notable exceptions, it’s a sport steeped in tradition and excellence.

Well on closer inspection this guy hasnt looked into the days of forty rounds, no gloves and last man standing rules. Ill give you that point.

MMA, on the other hand, is a no-holds-barred, virtually rule-free environment in which two men or two women pummel each other using the method of their choice.


This is true is it not?

Now, I personally don’t see the appeal in watching two half-naked men wrestle for three five-minute sets, but this “sport” has set records in pay-per-view sales and sky-rocketed to one of the most watched events on TV.

haha, thats your choice Derek. Yep give you that one.

This bastardization of more traditional martial arts is a dangerous trend. When I took tae kwon do, the worst thing I did to someone was bow at him. Glorifying and rewarding the best way to make someone else bleed or faint is a complete departure from what martial arts are all about—discipline, honour, and respect.

Ok and that one too.


Often, popular sports are reflective of the cultures that foster them. This is another reason it concerns me that MMA has gained such prominence in our culture. Many sports, including football and hockey, involve an element of violence. However, mixed martial arts crosses the line from sport into brutality. Sports today put too much emphasis on violence in general, and I just don’t see the point.


Id be hard pushed to agree with that.

You aren’t going hear someone 20 years down the road say, “Remember that time when (insert tough guy’s name here) put a 30-stitch cut on the chin of (insert unfortunate victim’s name here) back in ’08? That’s was a great match!” Rather, we’ll likely still be reminiscing about the Patriots’ perfect season, Kobe’s 81 points in 2006, and the Stanley Cup the Flames won in ’08. Okay, maybe the latter is only wishful thinking, but you get the picture.

Violence now holds a place near and dear to the North American heart, and the ramifications of this trend are clear. As athletes get bigger, stronger and faster, these assets will be used to hurt rather than to compete against other athletes.

Yeah thats pretty ignorant

While it is unlikely that sports like boxing will completely die out, I cringe at the rise of such lowly pursuits as MMA into the mainstream of North American athletics. The departure from respect and honor that are such integral part of sport—and traditional martial arts in particular—may mean a major shift in the sports of the future.


Ok Mule and Su Lin I apologise. Its a pretty dire defence.

Discipline and respect comes from the instructor and the student and not the art per se in my opinion.

There are clubs that promote the food ladder approach whereby new people get beat up on in sparring, but this could as readily happen in TMA's, kickboxing, MMA, etc. and be called "hard" training.

The clip that was shown does show a head stomp and it's not something that I think could personally do, however, it was rightly or wrongly within the rules of Pride. The participants agreed to those rules. I've seen a clip on the internet, though can't remember where of a referee, in what looks like a karate bout, headbutt, kick and stamp on a competitor, however, that doesn't mean that karate has no discipline does it?

If you look at the hay day of the semi contact competition in the early 90's and speak to people at the top end. Some of the stuff that they had to put up with in terms of gamesmanship, cheating, etc from opponents, who all had traditional martial arts backgrounds.

Over the years, some of the nicest guys I've met in the martial arts have come from combat sport backgrounds such as muay thai, BJJ and MMA. I've met some complete idiots who were traditional martial artists. Does that reflect on the arts? For me, no it just reflects on people in general.

At the minute MMA attracts people as it is fresh in the public consciousness and there are always people wanting to do the "best" martial art - ie the one that is in fashion at that particular time.

Sometimes MMA does look like brawling and indeed sometimes that is exactly what it is. However, to do MMA and step into a cage to fight requires a lot of discipline to condition your body and surely this should be admired in some way? Also there is a great deal of skill involved in the different ranges. I don't think most people generally understand the skill of some of the groundwork until they have grappled. To the untrained eye, it is hugging or just rolling around.

As for the article denegrating MMA, well he says that boxing is a great sport. Exactly what is the difference between boxing and MMA as sports? What is worse a guy getting hit repeatedly in the head for 12 rounds with big gloves or some getting knocked down when a clean shot lands in MMA? Also look at the amount of MMA fights that end with a submission, surely that is better than the fate of Michael Watson? Don't get me wrong, I love boxing, but I don't see how you can view one as more barbaric than the other.

It was on an MMA session in the US last year that the instructor pointed out that you need to respect your training partners and accept that sometimes you have to be the nail and not always the hammer.

SteveBruce wrote:
Discipline and respect comes from the instructor and the student and not the art per se in my opinion.
Surely, knowing events are being recorded and broadcast, there is a greater responsibility to act appropriately?

There are clubs that promote the food ladder approach whereby new people get beat up on in sparring, but this could as readily happen in TMA's, kickboxing, MMA, etc. and be called "hard" training.
Yeah.
Has, does and probably always will.

The clip that was shown does show a head stomp and it's not something that I think could personally do, however, it was rightly or wrongly within the rules of Pride. The participants agreed to those rules.
Noted.
That's a fair point.

I've seen a clip on the internet, though can't remember where of a referee, in what looks like a karate bout, headbutt, kick and stamp on a competitor, however, that doesn't mean that karate has no discipline does it?
I posted that clip here, on Martial Edge not so long back.
Like you said earlier, the responsibility lies with the individual.

If you look at the hay day of the semi contact competition in the early 90's and speak to people at the top end. Some of the stuff that they had to put up with in terms of gamesmanship, cheating, etc from opponents, who all had traditional martial arts backgrounds.
It's in the nature of any sport at top level.
Once you've pushed as hard as you can within the rules, you start exploiting the rules themselves.

Over the years, some of the nicest guys I've met in the martial arts have come from combat sport backgrounds such as muay thai, BJJ and MMA. I've met some complete idiots who were traditional martial artists. Does that reflect on the arts? For me, no it just reflects on people in general.
I'd agree, though both groups seem to want to segregate and deny each other.

At the minute MMA attracts people as it is fresh in the public consciousness and there are always people wanting to do the "best" martial art - ie the one that is in fashion at that particular time.

Sometimes MMA does look like brawling and indeed sometimes that is exactly what it is. However, to do MMA and step into a cage to fight requires a lot of discipline to condition your body and surely this should be admired in some way?Absolutely.
I think that top level MMA fighters are akin to the pioneers of Karate and Full Contact in their day.
Competitors like Pat McKay (three times world Karate Gold medallist), Neil Adams (Olympic Gold Judoka), Benny the Jet etc would all be involved in top level MMA if you brought them forward into this era.
They're due no less respect.
The respect issues come from those who seek to draw comparison between their amatuer level of practice and that of amatuers in other disciplines.
Fighters shut up, tape up and put up.

Also there is a great deal of skill involved in the different ranges. I don't think most people generally understand the skill of some of the groundwork until they have grappled. To the untrained eye, it is hugging or just rolling around.
I'd say the transition from one range to another, is one of the most interesting aspects of MMA.
I dislike the sport personally, but the concepts and methodology I find no fault with, except for those focussed purely on the sport perhaps.

As for the article denegrating MMA, well he says that boxing is a great sport. Exactly what is the difference between boxing and MMA as sports? What is worse a guy getting hit repeatedly in the head for 12 rounds with big gloves or some getting knocked down when a clean shot lands in MMA?
We've all grown up with boxing, so it's familiar territory.
The layman, the guy down the pub can follow and understand it.
MMA is relatively new, or at least is perceived to be.

Also look at the amount of MMA fights that end with a submission, surely that is better than the fate of Michael Watson? Don't get me wrong, I love boxing, but I don't see how you can view one as more barbaric than the other.
That's stretching it a bit perhaps.
Sure, you can pull Tyson vs Holyfield out of the bag, but if someone butted me in the eye as many times as Holyfield did Tyson, I'd have bitten his nose and lips off, not just nibbled his ear,

It was on an MMA session in the US last year that the instructor pointed out that you need to respect your training partners and accept that sometimes you have to be the nail and not always the hammer.
Nice way to finish off your post.
You like to flip a topic over and tickle it's tummy Steve.
I'm looking forward to more discussion with you.
Thanks for the thoughts.

Just started to read this thread and Steve you've covered alot I was going to steal. Thanks for stealing my thunder *shakes fist*

In my humble opinion there is a lot of discipline in UFC, Pride and Cage Rage etc involved in the preperation. And if anyone has ever thought of doing it and has seen the rule book (you could beat a cow to death with it!) you would understand that it is a very disciplined sport/style of fighting.

Also when you have a fight that ranges from standing to ground you have to have the rules allow for an in between. And if the person is halfway down or down and the other is standing why should the person standing give up their superior position??

Samael wrote:
And if the person is halfway down or down and the other is standing why should the person standing give up their superior position??
Take the back and RNC for submission would be safer than stamping on the back of someones head?

Like I said, this is being televised, it's in the 'worlds eye'.

safer yes and yes i understand the shock factor but are they stamping to the back of the (against the rules) or front. is the downed opponent conscious or not? all things need to be taken into accounts also is there a ref?

Stealing thunder? Tickling tummies? Moi?

My point re Michael Watson was based on the fact that he got badly injured within the laws of the sport. (Unlike the Tyson/Holyfield incident, which would have been against the rules in MMA as well). With full contact striking arts there is always a strong chance of concussion and compressions. I just think that 12 rounds of someone hitting you with big gloves is just as barbaric of 3-5 rounds of someone hitting you with little gloves. The pace and defences can be different as MMA guys don't have big gloves to hide behind, hence you don't see lots of jabbing in MMA. The comment about submissions was that you can have a MMA bout that can end with someone tapping and no one being that injured. Whereas in boxing there is either a TKO, a knock out or both men have been hitting each other for 12 rounds.

Anyway as I said I enjoy boxing as well, but it doesn't seem to receive the same amount of stick as MMA does for being the kid on the block.

In terms of stamping and hitting a felled opponent, it is clear that these can be viewed with concept and hence the tightening of rules in the UFC to make it a more mainstream product. The question of going for a RNC instead of a stamp in the old Pride rules is probably because it is more risky and the stamp was an easier way of winning. I don't think that I could stamp on a prone person and make it morally justifiable, but I'm not a fighter

I think that as long as both people know the rules, accept them and adhere to them then there can be little complaint. I have more of an issue with someone trying to knock someone out in light continuous sparring that I do with someone actually knocking someone out in MMA or boxing.

Remember at the top end, these are professionals and have to provide for their families and this is a full contact sport. If they can win quickly without getting damaged, pick up their pay cheque and move on to the next fight then they will do so.

I remember years ago watching a video of a mate in boxing bout and at the start he was using his jab a lot and in some respects looking technically sound, but was coming off worse from the exchanges. He then threw a few bombs and won by TKO. I was winding him about him losing his technique. He pointed out that he wanted to finish the bout as soon as possible with as little damage to himself as possible as the other guy might have knocked him out at any minute or worse, ruined his good looks.

In respects to people who talk up their art and are very rude about other arts, I don't think that martial arts muppets are exclusive to MMA, but can be found in most arts.

This is a interesting subject. I do enjoy the full contact sports including MMA, K1 etc. Now as people have already said in previous posts, the adrenaline gets pumping and people get carried away but to be in there in the first place does take alot of training and conditioning.

In many fights you can see alot of technique and other not so much, but even brawling is a fighting art in itself even if perhaps not one of the most fluent and interesting to watch.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned about this subject is an element of our psychology which is the 'Ego'
We all know what this is and how it works, and its something that effects many emotions and desisive mechanisms in our brains. To eliminate the ego is a discipline in itself and doesn't have much place in a competitive sport (although I feel losing the ego can help with anything). If your going at it with someone thinking I'm gonna tacticaly take this person out, and that opponent knocks you on your butt that is a blow to the ego and suddenly your embarrased and feel you need to get one up on the other guy and retaliate. The ego takes over to preserve one's image and pride, which mixed with frustration and temper can lead to an outburst of energy. At this point the mind just takes a back seat until it calms down.

It does depend on the person because there are alot of fighters who have control over the ego, if they get beat they accept it. They show calmness in tense situations. However there are some people who have 'Large ego's' and therefore it controls them on occasion.

You can't regulate someone psychological state in these kind of sports fairly until the bad things happen. Look at Mike Tyson... he bit someones ear off, later he still was allowed back in the ring?? not the decision I would have gone with.

There are rules, and rules will be broken and we hope that the rule are enforced in such a way that bad injuries and foul play is minimalised, but practicaly it will never be eliminated so long as we are human.

Bump!