To save going off topic in Pete's thread I thought it might be good to start one here on the notion of spirituality in martial arts.
You read on a lot of people's profiles here that they do ma to become a better person, or they do it for a "spiritual" reason. Is this possible? What's spiritual about martial arts? Is the notion of it actually misread as something else?

I personally struggle with the notion of the spiritual in martial arts, I can't find it and I'm not particularly interested in trying to find it. I'm not saying I don't believe in any kind of spiritual notions,just not in martial arts.

Maybe in times gone the warrior who was constantly faced with his own mortality had a stronger sense of the spiritual when it came to fighting, but being realistic this is an outdate notion today as none of us are warriors in the true sense of the word.

Surely, the possibility of causing harm to another requires moral consideration?
As many people delegate their moral responsibilities to some code or other, like religion, then it is only natural that spirituality has some place within Martial Arts.

Morals don't have to be rooted in a religious belief system though. You can be an atheist but adhere to a moral code.

Oh dear what I have started!

To save going off topic in Pete's thread I thought it might be good to start one here on the notion of spirituality in martial arts

Good shout

You read on a lot of people's profiles here that they do ma to become a better person, or they do it for a "spiritual" reason. Is this possible?

I think it is but if your not guided in the first place then how can you develop it? I personally believe this core element has been lost in western MA training.

Ive certainly become a more well rounded person since my MA training.

Maybe in times gone the warrior who was constantly faced with his own mortality had a stronger sense of the spiritual when it came to fighting, but being realistic this is an outdate notion today as none of us are warriors in the true sense of the word.


Isnt that a romantic view of a warrior? More likely to be a ruthless killer surely in times gone by?


Ive asked more questions then answered there but I need a run at this one before I get off the ground.

The reason I started MA was to learn how to harmonise myself with my surroundings. I chose Aikido as my main path as it teaches you this harmony.
If your not seeking the knowledge to train spiritualy you won't find it.

MA has indeed helped me understand the forces of nature, the power of myself as a human. I have learned more so about the focus in the mind, how this makes me feel clear and light. This focus has given me the time to let knowledge turn to wisdom, this wisdom helps me through my life by giving me insight to situations, peoples psychology, my psychology, I feel my body, where I am in time and space. Meditating has given me visions and experiances to connect myself with my surroundings.
I lead a better more stable life as MA gave me purpose, confidence to realise and believe in my abilities as a human being.
To open my mind to more than whats in front of me, to see the truth about many things.

Seeing harmony, enlightenment within ones self is a spiritual thing. You can acknowledge this in a spiritual way or a scientific way. Although there are many things we do not know for sure, the fact that we are what we are and can feel what we feel is so amazing no one can 100% explain exactly what its all about.
The universe and its actions are un fathomable, space never ends? gravtiy is weaker out there? We see no other life on our solar system... The stars and galaxies the immense power and energy that surges through it and effects us here on earth though you might ot be aware...
All these things add to a spiritual universe.
I do not believe in a god, I don't worship an idol, but I feel another body thats not of the physical world..
People have experiances that are lucid or astral... People leave their bodies and see themselfs....

A well known defence mechanism of humans is dis-asosiation where the spirit jumps out the body... Many people have these experiances and all explain the same things within them.
All these things open up if you look for the knowledge and feel things... MA helps with this or at least some do.

End of essay...

Su Lin wrote:
To save going off topic in Pete's thread I thought it might be good to start one here on the notion of spirituality in martial arts.
You read on a lot of people's profiles here that they do ma to become a better person, or they do it for a "spiritual" reason. Is this possible? What's spiritual about martial arts? Is the notion of it actually misread as something else?

I personally struggle with the notion of the spiritual in martial arts, I can't find it and I'm not particularly interested in trying to find it. I'm not saying I don't believe in any kind of spiritual notions,just not in martial arts.

Maybe in times gone the warrior who was constantly faced with his own mortality had a stronger sense of the spiritual when it came to fighting, but being realistic this is an outdate notion today as none of us are warriors in the true sense of the word.

Depends on how you define 'spirit', I would say that martial arts only take on quality when performed in a 'spirited' way. Our 'spirit' defines the quality of our life and training so I would say that it is essential for us to find and culture it.

You certainly don't need religion to train in the MA's but you do need spirit.

My main style is karate and I have fallen in love with its spiritual concept.

The kanji character for kara in karate has the meaning of empty.

The kanji character for te in karate has the meaning of hand.

Most people think that this "empty hand" carries a meaning of unarmed combat but in truth that is not the case.

Having an empty hand also implies carrying nothing. No weapons, no physical items, no strengths, no weaknesses. This follows closely with the Japanese buddhist/shinto beliefs in "mu" or nothingness. I pray to an altar every time I train (something which for political correctness isn't really allowed in the U.K.).

I train hard and I am one of the strongest (physically) fighters in my dojo. I am about 6 ft tall and 85 kgs. The next biggest guy is shorter than me and 90kg but it is mostly non-muscle body weight. I get beaten a lot because I rely on the strength that I have instead of ignoring the strength and letting things take over.

When I empty my mind of using my strength then my technique becomes better. It is much in the ethos of martial arts being a method for the weak to defeat the strong.

I feel very spiritual in my art because I embrace the concept of emptiness.

Sorry to mention you Su Lin but I have serious doubts if you could floor me with strength alone. I'm sure however if you were skilled enough and removed your need for strength then you would take me out as if I was nothing.

I think I said just about everything I thought on the other thread. Apologies Pete, if I went a bit off topic on that.

I would now concede that there is some sort of moral consideration in doing martial arts as opposed to going running or playing five-a-side. Martial arts may have re-enforced the moral beliefs that I previously had to some degree.

I do know how far I can push my body and that self awareness is good to have, but I don't think it is any different to a friend at work who is an avid runner.

I totally respect Tony's idea of "emptiness". I could be wrong, it's been know to happen , but is this the same as when you have times when you train and you aren't really thinking, because you're so focussed and just doing it. For me personally though I also get the same experience from other physical activities.

Spirituality is more then just feeling clear headed.

Much much more, The emptyness in the mind allows room for other connections and energy to blend with ourselfs.

I'm surprised no one has commented on my post earlier in this thread... The spiritual body exists, people leave their bodies, people become astral and lucid, these things alone prove that a spitual body exists.

Emptyness in the mind is only a form of meditating, but its the meditating thats connects us to the universe..

Interesting!

Are we all talking about the same thing when it comes to 'spirituality'?

Su Lin, can you please explain what you're referring to here?

Are we all talking about the same thing when it comes to 'spirituality'?


Thats a good question actually - personally what im interested in is peoples view on spiritual development in modern (or rather) western MA training.

PeteMills wrote:personally what im interested in is peoples view on spiritual development in modern (or rather) western MA training.Do you mean MA training the West, or training in Western-origin MA? I assume the former, but what makes you think the general populace of East Asia approaches MA any differently?

Ryusui_Ryu - I have a question about your post. You posit that spirituality exists, but would you please elaborate on how, specifically, martial arts have contributed to your search for harmony, enlightenment, etc?

I'd welcome opinions from everyone on this question. I think Tony Swain has so far most closely related his personal martial arts experience to spiritual development.

I suspect Su Lin, despite her skepticism, might somewhere deep down have a similar perspective from her MMA experience, and I'll add to the controversy by proposing that "nonspiritual" fight sports such as MMA and muay thai provide as true a path to spirituality as traditional martial arts in this age.

Today, except for actively-deployed military and law enforcement personnel, who else but fighters put themselves in physical danger from another human being? Other martial arts lack this kind of immediacy. Admittedly, the odds of death aren't the same as a feudal samurai, but unlike other sports, a fighter really has to reflect on hurting others and risking serious injury herself.

Moreover, nothing galvanizes you like facing an opponent who wants to beat you into the mat. This is where all your mental training -- focus, clarity, awareness, ability to harmonize with your environment -- is put to the test.

Sure, sport fighting is full of insecure people who participate only to satisfy their egos, but don't all martial arts have their losers? In fight sports, like all martial arts, there are those rare few who transcend ego and exude a definite sense of spirituality.