For the last 3 1/2 years I have been studying a style of kung fu that I have many doubts over the lineage of. At first I didn't really mind what I did, I went along to lessons and just thought my teacher was great, he was obviously very talented and also placed great emphasis on the physical training,which was great. The more I found out about the "style" though,the more I felt uneasy about it. There are things in it that I know just wouldn't work and I have real issues with the "lineage" and the fact that I am not even in that organisation,my club is frowned upon as we are a breakaway. (Bear with me Mule I know you know this stoory and who I am on about )

Thing is though, even though I don't think the style is great,my teacher is great. He is starting to think about breaking away from the syllabus a bit now and go more with the Shaolin stuff he learned with another teacher (I know,I know,Shaolin is too vague).My teacher is really open minded and he welcomes us discussing things we learned in mma,as is my mma teacher with what we learn in kung fu..

So I suppose what I am asking is, is it possible to almost distance yourself from a style you don't have much faith in (although I do admit there is some good stuff in it) as you have an excellent teacher,or not?

IMO, the style is irrelevant, unless you genuinely don't enjoy studying it.

If the teacher is competent, and can apply what he knows, then what he knows doesn't matter, only that he can reproduce it in his students.

And if you're teacher is thinking of bringing in some former training that he feels will benefit the class - all to the good.


But in the end, it depends on how "uncomfortable" the lineage issues make you. If it is so distracting that you find yourself unable to concerntrate, then you'd best move on.

I have thought so many times about moving on but can't ,as I would miss my classmates too much,we have a really good little club and I suppose that matters more to me than the lineage. To be honest,most of the time when I am training I don't even think about the style I am doing.Luckily he is pragmatic and we spend a lot of time looking at applications and making things work. So in actual fact I suppose I am really lucky.

Then it looks like the choice is already made

The only time lineage should really matter is if you are willing to go to great lengths to get as close as you can to the original source of the style.

I have trained with the supreme master of my style a number of times. My first instructor here was a 7th dan awarded by the supreme master (my first instructor passed away this year unfortunately). My current instructor is my first instructors nephew and has been training for 30 of the 36 years of his life.

The lineage of my club is probably as close as I can get without packing up and moving to Tokyo.

It takes great lengths to get excellent lineage and unfortunately it may mean that you have to move a long way away to get it. My advice would be to just stick with the club you are having fun at unless you are willing to go all or nothing with wanting to be as close to the source as possible.

I agree with what others have said.

Lineage = Relative, if you want to get to the "traditional" or authenticities of a style great. That is what you maybe doing the Art for.

If this does not interest you and you want what works? Then just learn from all you can and assimilate it.

If you however, enjoy where you train, the teacher, the students etc. (which it sounds like you do) What is the problem? If you enjoy it, then by all means enjoy it! Besides it seems to me if you are doing MMA, then you would be getting a good dose of "what really works".

What it comes down to is why do you do what MA you do?

Good points people I think it just gets to me when I get called on the internet as we are not "the real" xxxxx kung fu. I have faith in my teacher ,his teaching style and as I said I enjoy training with him and my fellow students a great deal. I'm not going to quit because of the questionable lineage.I am glad I am not part of the "official" association as I have real issues with so many things they do.

True lineage of techniques in TMA is difficult to establish as each decendant pupil who turns teacher will surely adapt some of those techniques to his own personality and physicality and that of his students. We are all built differently and therefore some techniques would need some adaption to work. Add to that the changing times and relevance of the techniques to modern day living.. There are very few really 'traditional' schools, each new school/club will be the instructors take on what he knows.

The question you need to ask is to what end are you training? To reproduce the original art? self defence? keep fit? Once you know the reason you are training, then the relevance of its lineage will be apparent.

If you are not trying to exactly reproduce the original art then the most important thing is how much you rate the instructor.

Su,

In the Kenpo/Kempo world we all like to trace our linage back to one, maybe two men in Hawaii. The first and foremost was Professor William Kwai Sun Chow, and for others, it was James Mitose. As you probably know, there is and still is the whole bickering about Lineage of who's Ken/mpo came from and so forth.

The Kenpo arts I study both have lineage from both men, but mainly Chow. Now, for me that is how far it goes to me...when/if someone asks what my lineage is regarding my style of ken/mpo, I just say Chow's and leave it at that. No matter what they say or bring up regarding it does not matter to me.

What matters is my training and who I'm learning from. I will also admit that there are things in my style that are totally impractical, but is learned as part of the curriculum, the difference is whether or not I actually buy into it and think it'll actually work.

I suppose after years of training and learning whether formal or informal, and from others in different styles, I've just learned to adapt things to my liking by making them more practical, or even so discarding it all together.

Knowing a lil bit about your Kung-Fu training and how you get along with your instructor and mates is probably the most important in the end, and if you are receiving the type of training you want.

I know what you mean Su...

Ryusui Ryu is a breakaway, its a club that formed because my Doshu wanted to blend Karate and Aikido to form a soft flowing but practical style, to be fun and learn good MA skills.
The talent of the sensei's and the training is of real high quality but as it's not the typical thing you would find when looking for karate or Aikido people's first reaction to something new is to reject it. Unfortunately people don't embrace new idea's anymore, at least not at first, we tend to reject them as our ego's get the better of us.

The fact is that I feel my skill and quality, I have had other Aikido practioners comment on how good my technique is and say that they are not as good even though they are the same or similar grade as me. People are seeing the quality by trying it out and feeling it for themselves. Anyone can slate a club form afar but we say, come and try for yourself then make your mind up...

Stick with what you feel is right, I am sticking with my club because I am now part of an evolutionary movement in Martial Arts with regards to soft styles. If your club is of quality then help it grow and be a part of the evolutionary process that shares this new found idea and knowledge with the world...

I say good luck!!

My opinion Lineage doesn't anything when someone is about to stick a broken bottle in you or a knife!!! If the technique you are taught is believed in then it will work.............. Looks like you have a good instructor, they are hard to find. It doesn't matter of their own skill level so long as they bring out the skill in you.

Example: Cus D'amato was an old man and could never win in the ring against todays boxers. But even though his skill level was low he managed to train one of the modern day greats, Mike Tyson.

Su Lin wrote:


So I suppose what I am asking is, is it possible to almost distance yourself from a style you don't have much faith in (although I do admit there is some good stuff in it) as you have an excellent teacher,or not?

These are not the real questions!

The questions are;

Does the style maketh the individual?
What degree does the individual have influence on what they practice?
What is the relative responsibility of both student and teacher in acheiving the end result.
What, at the end of the day, can be acheived by a simbiotic relationship between both?
Can anyone show proof of efficacy in such a relationship?
What form does such proof take and is it inarguable?