Shadow wrote:
See this is where I am getting at. I focus my martial arts on becoming a better fighter. In my opinion I need to study more then just Taekwondo or Karate to be the best I can possibly be, but unless you have some sign of status (ie. black belt) then you can never tell people that you are a good martial artist without them thinking you are full of crap. And the problem at least in Australia is that if I went to a specific dojo to learn a specific technique it would take X number of years until they would be willing to teach it to me. Now I don't know about anyone else but I don't want to spend X number of years in one style, I like to diversify. Personally I believe the grading system should be based on how good a martial artist one is, not how long they spend in one system or how many katas they can perform.

1) why do you give a rodent's rear end what other people think or say? t doesn't sound to me like you are training to prove anything to anyone other than yourself (as it should be).

2) is your only interest in the martial arts fighting, or do you seek more than that?

3) as a general rule, grading is not based on time. it is based on effort. it is just a fact that effort takes time. i might have 2 students start at the same time, but rarely will they progress at the same rate as there will be different times in their training when they are lax, and aren't training as hard or as often as they need to be.

While many people emphasize how little they care for the whole notion of colored belts, I think it's an important thing. For instance, you wouldn't go to a doctor who wasn't certified...who never took a test, who never served as an intern.

In Chinese martial arts today, we have dozens and dozens of people who claim to be "masters", who claim to have studied with the great master "(insert a name)" for 20 years or whatever. But that tells you nothing.
For instance, you don't know how often the fellow attended class - once a week, once a year, every day - or if he was actually any good at what he did. Heaven knows I've had students who attended class frequently but they didn't pay much attention or wouldn't put out the required effort and consequently, their level of skill was somewhere below minimal...

Tests help eliminate that kind of problem. The highly-respected kung-fu teacher, Adam Hsu, stated that Chinese martial arts need a grading system of some kind. I agree.

Black Belt or not? I've been studying for 3 decades, and I'm no where near the best in my field. But I can say this Mr. Miyagi said it best. "Belt just mean no need rope to hold up pants."

If you are trying to impress someone, then the belt won't matter. Those that are truly impressive in their combat skills don't give a hoot about rank or structure or anything.

O-sensei was refining his Aikido until the day he died. He never had it. He awarded rank haphazard. Why it didn't mean squat and he knew it. What mattered was the walk, not the talk.

Take my belt away from me. I don't care, you can't take what I know.

As for training, once you reach a certain skill level in a art/sytle/system you can often find someone in another subset that can help you learn without years of waiting, just based on the fact you do truely have a clue when you discuss things with them.

I train for two reasons.

1. To prove to myself that I am good at what I do. So when people tell me that i'm not good or such because I don't have a black belt then I feel like i'm not good enough. You can say that you shouldn't care what other people think but deep down you care about other people's opinion of you.

2. The second reason I train is to protect myself and the people around me from people who wish them hard. In this day and age muggings, stabbings and such are more frequent. So I need to be able to say "Yes, I can protect you" and actually want people to believe that I can. It seems to me that without a sign of status such as a black belt people don't think you are any good.

Shadow wrote:
I train for two reasons.

1. To prove to myself that I am good at what I do. So when people tell me that i'm not good or such because I don't have a black belt then I feel like i'm not good enough. You can say that you shouldn't care what other people think but deep down you care about other people's opinion of you.

2. The second reason I train is to protect myself and the people around me from people who wish them hard. In this day and age muggings, stabbings and such are more frequent. So I need to be able to say "Yes, I can protect you" and actually want people to believe that I can. It seems to me that without a sign of status such as a black belt people don't think you are any good.

Of course I care what others think of me, but only to a certain extent. I don't really give a darn what the uninitiated think of my martial arts skills. They don't know anything, so how would they know? I do care what my teachers and my students think of the kind of martial artist I am. And in the case of self-defense, if you are ever in that situation and have to protect a loved one, then your actions and your courage will say more than any belt, my friend.

PeteMills wrote:
[quote]Ok im going to take you all on here...

Su Lin wrote

I dont agree with the whole "gradings give me focus" thing

But you believe in a syllabus? How can you quantify when someone has learned a specific technique? Does the syllabus tell you? Does your instructor tell you? Is your instructor qualified to tell you without a grading panel?



YEs he is qualified to tell me if I am doing a technique properly,why would I be training with him if he wasn't? It doesn't take x amount of black belts sat on a panel to tell me that I am doing something properly,my teacher can do that. And yes I do believe you can have a syllabus without having a belt. That's exactly what happens with my MMA. We dont need belts to be able to demonstrate we know a set amount of techniques, this is done through constantly demonstrating these techniques through fighting .

Ok Su Lin im not attacking your instructor or you personally here...

What im saying is, objectively, if there isnt an external panel how can your instructor be vetted? For example, other sports have offical bodies that regulate and govern what coaches do. Sure im not for one minute saying that belts are the defining element in a martial arts fighter, nor am I defending the organisations out there that use grading systems as a way of making tonnes of cash!

So my question is, if your totally new to the martial arts, how do you know what standard your instructor is teaching you to, and if techniques are correct?

Lol I know you aren't Pete, it's an internet discussion board,it takes a lot to upset me

I know he is able to grade as we are part of a large association (WUMA) so he knows what he is doing. For our black sash we go down to their hq for a weekend for the grading.I just don't think that a panel of people are necessary for each gradings when I know for a fact that my sifu can do everything incredibly competently on the syllabus, he himself has black sashes in 2 styles and knows what he is doing.

Agreed. When we do exams at my school there is no panel until you get to black belt grading. We have 2 instructors during exams; one to proctor the exam, and the other watch and grade everyone. In fact, sometime the proctor isn't even an instructor. Sometimes it is a high ranking student, and then the instructor can work on grading.

ok petemills

your right in what your thinking as i was the same some time back

I would like to no how you think like this as back then i never found out why i was thinking like that back then

i think it is beter to have a grade for abilty
as if you are aware there are good and bad black belts out there
and teachers as well

i think most people are saying there belts colours are not there
ability to fight as you will see when two the same belts sparr with each other

and yep i do not put everything down as i belive most would not need to read the entire text as this is going to be very large
so i genaralize ( if need be thay can ask )

all the best

hmm.... my instructors always say that belts mean nothing.

at karate we had some new guy, our instructor wanted to do some gentle sparring or one-to-one practice, the new guy said "noway! i can't spar with you, you are a black belt!"
hearing this my instructor went to his back, took off his black belt, out on a white belt, walked over this new guy and said "well now i am not a black belt, which means we can do some sparring."

Su Lin, DMC, and Redsnow... You have all just highlighted how important belts are there in putting forward your arguments.

Su Lin:

For our black sash we go down to their hq for a weekend for the grading.

he himself has black sashes in 2 styles and knows what he is doing

Cool, so you will have to go down to the HQ for a group of people to deem you are competent? Whether you are a good fighter or not, your organisation tests your abilities through a grading process.

As for your instructor (like mine who have graded for their blackbelt equivelents in TKD) has still had his abilities measured to grade for a black sash.

DMC:

When we do exams at my school there is no panel until you get to black belt grading.

But you do have a panel where high ranking instructors judge your abilities, not just on your ability to fight but to test your wide range of martial arts application.

hmm.... my instructors always say that belts mean nothing.

With all respect he still took it off to demonstrate a point. And I bet he is wearing it at class now. :)


So I reckon guys we are still looking for an answer here. Because not one of you can say that your clubs/organisations goal is measured with the eventual goal of getting to blackbelt.