So I reckon guys we are still looking for an answer here. Because not one of you can say that your clubs/organisations goal is measured with the eventual goal of getting to blackbelt.

I can.
The goal I have when I'm with my teacher is to learn. That is the goal that I set my students. My teacher tells me when I am ready to learn something new, and I trust in his guidance, as he has spent 20+ years in China, Taiwan & Hong Kong learning from some great masters, and because I feel his skill and ability.

The goal I have when I'm with my teacher is to learn. That is the goal that I set my students. My teacher tells me when I am ready to learn something new, and I trust in his guidance, as he has spent 20+ years in China, Taiwan & Hong Kong learning from some great masters, and because I feel his skill and ability.


I have 100% respect for that BT. But again im not disputing training motivations here.

How do you assess your students. And how does your instructor assess your abilities?

My teacher makes me apply what I've learned on him, so he can feel if what I'm doing is correct. And this is the same way I assess my students.

I should probably add, that this isn't done on a set "assesment date". It is done session by session, minute by minute. Sometimes I will spend weeks, or even months working on a single movement until my teacher deems me ready to proceed.

I see, so how does this method compare with the four blackbelt gradings you took in three other styles?

From my experiences as a student... Say there are 30 students in my taekwondo class... I know maybe 3-4 of them would probably learn by application in how you teach.... But without structure I know the rest that come to train would lose interest without that blackbelt grading to aim for.

I find this method is a lot more personal. Instead of standing infront of a panel of judges who look at your external movement, my teacher is there, hitting me, and he can feel if my movements are effective, he can feel where I'm going wrong, and make me instantly aware of any gap in my defence. It's something you just don't get with gradings.

As to your second point, that's probably why I have a total of 4 students who continue to train with me at least 3 times per week. This kind of method is very hard, and I would assume only appeals to those who have a "hardcore" dedication to practice. No offence to anyone here, and I'm not trying to make myself out to sound great. Quite the opposite. What I'm trying to say is this method is VERY tiresome, and there are times when I want to walk away, and go back to neatly set out gradings in prestine dojo's. But what I really want is to improve my skill. And out of all of my training, this is the most effective method I have come across, so I persevere.

PeteMills wrote:
Su Lin, DMC, and Redsnow... You have all just highlighted how important belts are there in putting forward your arguments.

Su Lin:

For our black sash we go down to their hq for a weekend for the grading.

he himself has black sashes in 2 styles and knows what he is doing

Cool, so you will have to go down to the HQ for a group of people to deem you are competent? Whether you are a good fighter or not, your organisation tests your abilities through a grading process.

As for your instructor (like mine who have graded for their blackbelt equivelents in TKD) has still had his abilities measured to grade for a black sash.

DMC:

When we do exams at my school there is no panel until you get to black belt grading.

But you do have a panel where high ranking instructors judge your abilities, not just on your ability to fight but to test your wide range of martial arts application.

hmm.... my instructors always say that belts mean nothing.

With all respect he still took it off to demonstrate a point. And I bet he is wearing it at class now.


So I reckon guys we are still looking for an answer here. Because not one of you can say that your clubs/organisations goal is measured with the eventual goal of getting to blackbelt.

I see what you are getting at. However, even if my sifu didn't have a black sash I would still train with him. Traditional kung fu doesn't have sashes, that goes way back,and I would be perfectly happy to train with my sifu if we did a different style with no sashes. It just so happens we have sashes and we are part of an organisation. My black sash grading isn't a big thing for me, whereas proving I can actually fight and hold my own and apply techniques is a big thing.

You go learn kung fu with a more traditional style and you won't find sashes. A guy I know does Choy Le Fut with a hugely well renowned school, they don't have sashes and they barely have a syllabus but man can they fight well.

my teacher is there, hitting me, and he can feel if my movements are effective, he can feel where I'm going wrong, and make me instantly aware of any gap in my defence.

That just sounds like sparring.

As to your second point, that's probably why I have a total of 4 students who continue to train with me at least 3 times per week.

Ok fair enough

No offence to anyone here

None taken

and go back to neatly set out gradings in prestine dojo's. But what I really want is to improve my skill.

I train on the top floor of an old mill in Keighley, West Yorkshire. Nothing prestine about it. But it is clean and is a very safe training environment.

And out of all of my training, this is the most effective method I have come across, so I persevere.

Couldnt agree with you more. Sparring is great as is self defence applications.

That just sounds like sparring.


Sparring, 1-step sparring, 3 step sparring, push-hands, applications, form work.

recocmend you take a look at bruce lee his book and pick an art form you like pick up a black belt and go from there all the best from mark

Sparring, 1-step sparring, 3 step sparring, push-hands, applications, form work.

Yep, with the exception of push hands thats what they do in TKD, Karate etc.


Lets see if you can see what im trying to get at another way here. If I asked one of my none 'martial arts' friends to join me in the back garden and then with them standing next to me I performed a blackbelt grade pattern - and said ok you try. How far do you think they would get?

I will tell you how far. Nowhere.

So when you have a beginner join your class, do you throw them straight in the deep end. Also, how do you structure class and your students training?

Im totally with both you and Su Lin on the fighting aspect. Blackebelts dont make fighters. Hell, we have Geoff Thompson on here as a contributer who has defined his writing career on the basis that his blackbelt did not help him conquer fear or make him a fighter.

But, whether your training goal is to learn to fight, fitness or wanting to learn more about yourself in terms of self expression I would hedge my bets that 70% of students aim to achieve a blackbelt.

By simply dismissing grading structure you are taking out an important learning tool and guide.

I agree it can be important for some people, just not to everyone and it completely depends on your style and the culture of it. I imagine those people who want/need the structure of a style such as tkd will be drawn to it, whereas people who really aren't bothered about that will take an art such a kung fu,muay thai etc.

Pete - I hope you realize I'm not arguing against belts or anything. I was just stating that I don't think there is a need for a panel of instructors at every test. I do believe in organization, rank, and curriculum. But I also see the other side as well. I know that no belt dictates what I am and what I'm capable of. I just know they are a good tool for me as an instructor.

Su Lin - You are partially correct. There were no belt ranks in traditional kung fu. That does not mean there were no sashes. The sash (as well as the obi in Jap/Ok MA) is actually an important training tool. The whole purpose of the belt/sash initially was as a training apparatus. According to Yang Jwing-Ming, the sash was supposed to make sure the abdominal viscera were not jostled too much in practice due to the vibration, shifting, and rotation of the hips/waist. Sifu Starr has told me that the belt knot on the obi was meant to sit over the Dan Tien (and not up on the belly button). It was supposed to be tight enough that you could feel the knot press on you if you were breathing properly. It was a way to make you constant aware of your Dan Tien.


edit - Black Belt is also one of those things that everyone has the wrong idea about. Most people think you need to have your hands registered as lethal weapons on reaching black belt. heck, some people think you need to kill someone to reach beyond it.

I try to show my students that Black Belt is an important step, but that's all it is...a step on the path. I try not to overemphasize it, otherwise what you get are 1st Dan students who quit because they think they've mastered their art and there is noting more to learn.