I did taekwondo until a black belt as a kid with two mates. I was the only decent fighter and yet we all came out of there with black belts that mean absolutely jack. Especially with kids, teachers tend to pass just so that people continue to pay them money to train. Unfortuantely martial arts has started to become less about the art and more about the business. From my perspective at least.

Shadow wrote:
I did taekwondo until a black belt as a kid with two mates. I was the only decent fighter and yet we all came out of there with black belts that mean absolutely jack. Especially with kids, teachers tend to pass just so that people continue to pay them money to train. Unfortuantely martial arts has started to become less about the art and more about the business. From my perspective at least.

Absolutely true.
The only way to come back from this, is to start grading people on skill and ability, instead of effort put in.

If I put loads of effort into studying for an examination, then muck up in the exam itself, I don't expect to pass just because I put loads of work in before hand.

Grades will continue to mean nothing until we stop grading people who do not deserve the grades they hold.

There needs to be a cut off point were effort just won't get a pass. I set this at 7th Kyu in my system. I also look for a change in the way the student performs the moves. Not just pushing the arm out for a punch but stiking each punch as if their life depended on it. I wouldn't want to send people away from my class with a false sense of security.

I think that we have a mis understanding of what the grades mean...

Grades are nothing more than a system within a club to distinguish your skill, understanding and commitment to your club.

You can have 10 1st dans and 1 or 2 of those 1st dans are much much better than the other people. Does this mean the other guys don't deserve a 1st dan? or is it that some people just learn quicker and are on a higher level than their current grade is?

Anything up to 1st dan is basic's. Your learnin to train muscle memory, show spirit, understand yourself, not just do all the moves perfect every time. At blue belt what is that? 2-3 grades away from black belt? compare this guy to a beginner and see what knowledge, spirit and understanding he has compared to them...

There are gonna be good people on a grade, and people not so good on the same grade, the point is that its all down to yourself, how good you are, your belt/grade doesn't change that so really it is insignificant. Obviously there must be hard work and understanding to reach the higher ranks to dan grade and beyond but too many people think black belt is expert when in fact it means your compitant not an expert.

So next time you think that you should tell people they are rubbish and can never do martial arts, take a look at yourself and ask yourself how you would feel if something you try hard at is shattered because someone gets egotistical and tells you your rubbish...

So long as they enjoy, learn (at whatever rate) and show commitment why should they leave? MA is too know yourself so forget about what grade someone else is and concentrate on being the best you can be....

Ryusui_Ryu wrote:
I think that we have a mis understanding of what the grades mean...

Grades are nothing more than a system within a club to distinguish your skill, understanding and commitment to your club.

No misunderstanding here. A grade is a system to show your skill. If you do not have the level of skill, you should not get the grade, no matter how much effort you have put in.


You can have 10 1st dans and 1 or 2 of those 1st dans are much much better than the other people. Does this mean the other guys don't deserve a 1st dan? or is it that some people just learn quicker and are on a higher level than their current grade is?

If the other 8 or 9 first dans can perform the required techniques to a high level of practice each and every time, then they deserve the grade. If they put in the effort, but cannot perform, then they do not deserve the grade.



Anything up to 1st dan is basic's. Your learnin to train muscle memory, show spirit, understand yourself, not just do all the moves perfect every time. At blue belt what is that? 2-3 grades away from black belt? compare this guy to a beginner and see what knowledge, spirit and understanding he has compared to them...

So, you point here is that someone with more training and experience is going to be better than a novice? Er, duh??



There are gonna be good people on a grade, and people not so good on the same grade, the point is that its all down to yourself, how good you are, your belt/grade doesn't change that so really it is insignificant. Obviously there must be hard work and understanding to reach the higher ranks to dan grade and beyond but too many people think black belt is expert when in fact it means your compitant not an expert.

Again I say, if a person can perform their techniques well, they deserve their grade. If a person cannot perform their techniques well, they do not deserve their grade.
The idea of having grades is that people in one grade bracket are at the same skill level as each other.
Whats the point in having grades, if one blue belt is able to throw a perfect hook kick (for eg) and is able to apply that kick in combat, and one blue belt is still learning to fasten his Gi?


So next time you think that you should tell people they are rubbish and can never do martial arts, take a look at yourself and ask yourself how you would feel if something you try hard at is shattered because someone gets egotistical and tells you your rubbish...

So long as they enjoy, learn (at whatever rate) and show commitment why should they leave? MA is too know yourself so forget about what grade someone else is and concentrate on being the best you can be....

I don't think anyone is saying that a less able student should be made to leave. Just that they should be made to work harder, and not be awarded a grade just because they've put effort in, without actually being competent in the techniques.

Some people are just not meant to be martial artists. Some must afll by the wayside. You must have a filter for those who have, and those who have not. Grading is your filter. Without it the world would be full of black belts. Then being a black belt would mean nothing.

Bailu Taiji wrote:

I think that we have a mis understanding of what the grades mean...

Grades are nothing more than a system within a club to distinguish your skill, understanding and commitment to your club.

No misunderstanding here. A grade is a system to show your skill. If you do not have the level of skill, you should not get the grade, no matter how much effort you have put in.

A grade means nothing, what matters is your ability. Your grade means nothing to me and mine means nothing to you. It's the skill that matters not the grade. I feel my level and I am happy with my ability for my level. I don't care if someone who appears to be not as good as me is the same grade, though in our club the grades are fairly even you do see a few people on a grade that perhaps shouldn't be for the time being but then its a case of how long they stay there.


You can have 10 1st dans and 1 or 2 of those 1st dans are much much better than the other people. Does this mean the other guys don't deserve a 1st dan? or is it that some people just learn quicker and are on a higher level than their current grade is?

If the other 8 or 9 first dans can perform the required techniques to a high level of practice each and every time, then they deserve the grade. If they put in the effort, but cannot perform, then they do not deserve the grade.

Simple point being you get different abilities along the same grades.



Anything up to 1st dan is basic's. Your learnin to train muscle memory, show spirit, understand yourself, not just do all the moves perfect every time. At blue belt what is that? 2-3 grades away from black belt? compare this guy to a beginner and see what knowledge, spirit and understanding he has compared to them...

So, you point here is that someone with more training and experience is going to be better than a novice? Er, duh??

My point being is that the guy has skill, compared to someone on his same grade one might not see a differance but compare him with lower grades and you will probably see a differance. You don't become a grade because you are granted it, you pass the grading to begin learning on that level.



There are gonna be good people on a grade, and people not so good on the same grade, the point is that its all down to yourself, how good you are, your belt/grade doesn't change that so really it is insignificant. Obviously there must be hard work and understanding to reach the higher ranks to dan grade and beyond but too many people think black belt is expert when in fact it means your compitant not an expert.

Again I say, if a person can perform their techniques well, they deserve their grade. If a person cannot perform their techniques well, they do not deserve their grade.
The idea of having grades is that people in one grade bracket are at the same skill level as each other.
Whats the point in having grades, if one blue belt is able to throw a perfect hook kick (for eg) and is able to apply that kick in combat, and one blue belt is still learning to fasten his Gi?

I think your example is a little extreme, how about this then a black belt leaves a club and doesn't train for 10 years, he comes back but has a dodgey hip and can't do the moves, would you say he is un capable of his grade? should he be demoted?
I doubt in any club you will see the exact same level across the same grades simply because people are different and people have their strengths and weaknessess. One person can't high kick but has excellent form and low kick power, another could high kick and has good form but isn't good at sparring...

So next time you think that you should tell people they are rubbish and can never do martial arts, take a look at yourself and ask yourself how you would feel if something you try hard at is shattered because someone gets egotistical and tells you your rubbish...

So long as they enjoy, learn (at whatever rate) and show commitment why should they leave? MA is too know yourself so forget about what grade someone else is and concentrate on being the best you can be...

I don't think anyone is saying that a less able student should be made to leave. Just that they should be made to work harder, and not be awarded a grade just because they've put effort in, without actually being competent in the techniques.

I am pretty sure this has been mentioned about telling soeone to leave as they are no good...
I don't understand why you have defended against everything I said??
It's not that hard to understand is it?

Grades are a filter Maddog your right, but the real filtering won't start until 2-3 belts away from black... training gets harder and understanding must get deeper. A black belt is an achievement sure but its really only the beginning another journey is it not?