"Here's the picture: a few thousand years before it was known that blood circulates or germs cause disease, doctors who had never dissected a frog, claimed that yin and yang could be balanced by inserting needles into the right points, among the hundreds of points strung along 12 meridians....Scientists suggest the needles stimulate release of endorphins. Jalapeno peppers do the same thing. So it wouldn't matter where you stick the needles would it? Then who needs an acupuncturist? --Bob Park" http://www.itmonline.org/arts/huatuo.htm
Check out the above article on Hua tuo he was one of the first doctors to ever perform surgery! Actually historians are now finding records (one place is the Ma huang Di tombs) about how the chinese practiced dissection (on living and dead subjects) well before the West even thought of such. This next part here:
"Traditional Chinese medicine is not based on knowledge of modern physiology, biochemistry, nutrition, anatomy, or any of the known mechanisms of healing. "
Is also totally false, in the Yellow Emperor's classic it speaks of the physiology of organs.
"The heart is the governor, it governs the blood and circulates the blood throughout the body."
"The Liver is the storehouse, it stores and purifies the blood and Qi for the body."
"The intestines, clear out the turbid and nourish the body with what was eaten."
These are now known medical facts. The heart does indeed provide blood circulation, the liver does indeed clear impurities from the blood and the intestines do in fact absorb nutrients and "separate" food and water, providing nourishment.
Most of these skeptics are skeptics that don't even truly look at the medicine. They look at the philosophy behind it (Yin/Yang/Qi) and automatically claim it "bogus" or false. They never even pick up a book about it, or what the medicine is based off of. An ancient chinese saying regarding the medicine: "What can we hope to learn from a dead body, when we want to keep the patient alive?" This was coined after the Chinese had done their fair share of dissections etc.
The next article I will have to read when I have time.
Thanks Den!
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To be honest I know very little about acupunctiure and alt med in general, not something I have looked at in depth.
The skepdic links are my first port of call when doing research of a sceptical nature as in general he is very good, however in serious research I never rely on only one source.
Your information has been very enlightening so thankyou!
Regards,
Den.
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Brit Sceptic wrote: Cheers for the link and info m8,
To be honest I know very little about acupunctiure and alt med in general, not something I have looked at in depth.
The skepdic links are my first port of call when doing research of a sceptical nature as in general he is very good, however in serious research I never rely on only one source.
Your information has been very enlightening so thankyou!
Regards,
Den.
So whenever you want to look at something with a skeptical view you go to this website and believe what they say??
Where do you think western medicine came from? Even in England before paracetamol and opium we used various Herbs and natural vegitation aorund the country, form this more things was learnt about the body and so new medicines were discovered and procedures tested.
If the Chinese are wrong, why are most English stressed and lathargic and have increasing obeseity? why does USA have alot of obeseity and heart disease?
Why is it that the Chinese populate about a 1/3 (third) of our planet?
Herbs are known to be good for the body, with accupuncture the herbs are more important than the sticking people with needles. The needles is just used to help relax muscles and assist blood flow, by hitting certain accu point helps the mucsles to relax which inturn allows for better circulation which allows for more energy to get to where its needed which in the end gives you a balanced healthy body...
Westerners say blanced diet.. an eastern view no?
Westerners know that relaxed muscles makes us feel better?
Just because it doesn't involve expensive opium based drugs or cutting someone open doesn't mean its not medicinal.
In the west we treat Mind and body serperately, the East treat all together on a healing and coping perspective..
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Power of the mind is infinite, while brawn is limited... www.ryusui-ryu.org
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If you actually read what I said I make that a first port of call as he supplies a credible view point, I never said anything about believeing absolute what he says, I supplied the link as a view point, I also supplied quackwatch which is run by medically trained people.
I have no interest in alt med so I supplied a couple of links for people to look at.
If I want to study something in depth I use multiple resources, anecdotal evidence as you supply ryu is just one of many,Anecdotal is also the least credible it is also the least credible.
So in future before you make assumptions please do check your facts,
hopefully we are not going to have a boring repeat of attacking any one that does not sit with your views aka 9/11 thread.
Again I state I put those links up to supply info fotr any one interested, he is a credible resource that supplies links and resoures for further investigation.
Research puts food on my table, so I kindly ask you personal comments about me to yoursel and stick to the topic at hand.
No one asked you to believe anything!
As I will not be drawn in to yet another pointless argument that is the end of this discussion from my side, feel free to keep making ad hominems about me, I shall continue the discusion with adults such as Taoquan who knows the value of tact and manners.
Regards,
Den.
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Firstly, I've only had chance to skim read some of the info on the links provided,
Den - have you listened to the radio show I mention earlier?
There are some valid and some not-so valid points on Quackwatch and the skeptic site. One thing I noted on Quackwatch was at first glance, how old some of the research was - i.e., I didn't notice the more recent findings, which perhaps supercede the older? (I'm not saying the old research is invalidated though)
The other thing I noticed, being quoted in such articles was the favourite line of spontaneous regression, or the fact that someone with say, knee pain, was offered sham surgery - they report improvement so its assumed 'oh well, they didn't need surgery in the first place' - I find that kind of assumption questionable.
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'To remain whole, be twisted!' - tao te ching.
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Ok, your a little touchy arn't you?
I don't judge people, your making assumptions now that it was personal attack on you... it was actually a little joke meaning that your last contributions on this subject was linking to the skeptic website. No harm meant honestly, I have not resorted to name calling or throwing a temper tantrum, or in that fact tried to correct you on your forum manner, but I have observed that you do not hold back in this case... Anyway like you said lets stay ON topic.
secondly what I said is based on actual facts of life, things that are real and have actually happened. History and life today is one big scientific experiment, you only have to know how we came to be and learn about methods used in the past and see how they have been modified.
This placebo effect is something of interest to me because I have a keen interest in psychology. The placebo effect is actually present alot of the time, we are talking medical here but in fact fear is a placebo effect. Fear effects our desicions and actions based on the idea of danger. If we believe something to be dangerous we are cautious... however this is a survival instinct and common sense. But... the illusions which are created in the mind to generate fear for example a dark entity in the woods at night making you a little freaked out is in fact a placebo effect, it's something that you think is happening but actually isn't.
Granted this is a different circumstance but the cause and effect generates similar results in the mind.
Could we say that a placebo is more like a mind manipulation of our fears? By fearing we have something wrong and a placebo 'drug' helps us deal with the apparent inevitability? Makes us think more positively about ourselfes so we do not fear becoming more ill?
Thoughts?
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Power of the mind is infinite, while brawn is limited... www.ryusui-ryu.org
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as mentioned earlier im just posting a couple of links for people to have a gander at and see whats out there,
as im sure you know just by googling acupuncture or placebo theres literally thousands of resources, I just post more credible ones.
If you really want I could go through my entire bookmark listing and source bang up to date information from various sources but as im not being paid to put in hours of work on this topic I would rather let people do a bit of their own research.
Please do not think im trying to say you are wrong, I just like to see a mixed bag of resources.
Placebo'by Dylan evans is a good book, also Simon singh wrote a good book on alt med if any one wants to look in depth.
Quackcast is a podcast show that covers acupuncture among other alt meds,
All I say is we shouldnt look at one source and bow down like its a god, a good mix of sources are required before we say, 'Im not going to the hospital to treat muy bowel cancer, im going to get acupuncture'.
Personally if im sick I see the Doc, thats not me saying Accupuncture is BS, its my preference.
As for Placebo, as far as I know it does work, but you have to really believe it and again is not a replacement, think cancer/aids, etc.
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Hi everyone, like Ryusui Ryu I too am interested in psychology and I've been particularly interested in the discussions taking place in this thread.
I sincerely have no wish offend who has taken the trouble to give us their input into this discussion, but in light of certain points that have already entered into the equation here I would just like to throw this statement into the mix:
With respect to any sort of "cure" (be it based on scientific holistic, alternative or other medical imperatives) at least in some respects as far as the Placebo effect is concerned, might it not be true to say that skepticism as an attitude might in itself prove unhealthy and unproductive for the patient?
My reasons for saying this involve a phenomenon that's known as the Nocebo effect. Nocebo is the term used to describe the Placebo's evil twin. Nocebo is the scientific term for the creation of a negative expectation that results in reducing or negating the value of a treatment. The nocebo effect is a phenomenon that is opposite to the placebo effect, whereby expectation of a negative outcome may lead to the worsening of a symptom.
As an example:
As a kid, I had a wart on my hand. My mom told me clear nail polish would "smother" it. I painted it on the wart for a week, and it fell off. My Dad explained the placebo effect to me. The next time I got a wart, clear nail polish did not work. My skepticism ruined the placebo effect.
Paris
Placebo-nocebo - very valid point! I wonder how many side effects from drugs are nocebo too? (not meaning all side effects, but perhaps a percentage?)
Den
Totally respect what you're saying, in fact I AGREE with a heck of a lot of it, but from a completely different POV - which might sound confusing coming from a complementary therapist! I try my absolute best not to be a quack, and learning about placebo is important to me.
When it comes to my own health, there are many things I would go to see my GP first for - and I'm very against the so called 'healers' who encourage dangerous practices against good conventional healthcare.
At the same time, I have learnt to augment my own healthcare with complementary treatments.
There are yet other conditions for which complementary healthcare is good for, and in some instances that I have seen in practice - I have witnessed couples with fertility problems save themselves or the NHS thousands of pounds through seeking (alongside good conventional healthcare) - support through complementary healthcare.
I think you'd find even Macmillan cancer care provides information and advice about the usefulness of some complementary treatments - but as you say, Den - best used alongside, rather than either/or.
Each has its place.
I would also point out, as stated earlier - even if you are going to see a conventional doctor, and your treatment involves the use of pharmaceutical drugs - a percentage of that treatment - is also placebo.
My point is, even when science is saying 'its placebo' - we need to learn more about what is at work within that.
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As an example:
As a kid, I had a wart on my hand. My mom told me clear nail polish would "smother" it. I painted it on the wart for a week, and it fell off. My Dad explained the placebo effect to me. The next time I got a wart, clear nail polish did not work. My skepticism ruined the placebo effect.
that statement is a complete non sequitur, sorry but absolute false correlation.
Anyway other than that Ryu made a good point I am a bit touchy and apologies if I come across that way, not my usual self but going through a rather stressful patch.
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