Hi Brit Skeptic!

As an example:
As a kid, I had a wart on my hand. My mom told me clear nail polish would "smother" it. I painted it on the wart for a week, and it fell off. My Dad explained the placebo effect to me. The next time I got a wart, clear nail polish did not work. My skepticism ruined the placebo effect.

that statement is a complete non sequitur, sorry but absolute false correlation.

Ok, fair do's, I give you that one, on account of the fact that my example of the Nocebo effect WAS a pretty feeble one after all, (although if you're interested enough to do a bit of research I'm sure you'll find that there are many far better examples out there to be had). However aside from denigrating my small example of the Nocebo effect, do you have anything feedback regarding the actual point I was making, i.e. with regard to skepticism and the Placebo/Nocebo phenomenon? See below:-

With respect to any sort of "cure" (be it based on scientific holistic, alternative or other medical imperatives) at least in some respects as far as the Placebo effect is concerned, might it not be true to say that skepticism as an attitude might in itself prove unhealthy and unproductive for the patient?

Hi Paris,

my intention was not to denigrate your point just merely to show in that instance B does not follow A, Apologies.

As towards your point stating:

With respect to any sort of "cure" (be it based on scientific holistic, alternative or other medical imperatives) at least in some respects as far as the Placebo effect is concerned, might it not be true to say that skepticism as an attitude might in itself prove unhealthy and unproductive for the patient?

then yes I would say scepticism does play a harmful role to a degree, what that percentage degree is I am certainly not qualified to say as the water is certainly muddled.

But lets admit I am sceptical a sugar pill will cure my cancer, but also sceptical chemotherapy will cure it as I heard its only a 30% chance (Example only).

I still believe the chemo will bring better results than a sugar pill.

Even if I had 100% belief in the sugar pill cure, I doubt highly it would effect any real cure. Same for aids, broken bnes, etc.

Only my opinion as I say not really something I have delved in to deeply and looking at my last source I posted, theres a long way to go yet. :)

Regards,

Den.

Thank you for your honest answer Brit Sceptic, :) I had no wish to put you on the spot in any way. It's just that I'm enjoying the discussions on this topic, and since like you I also adhere to a fairly pargmatic approach to such matters, I feel it's good to hear all other points of view on the matter rather than coming to "too quick" conclusions.

Having said all that and with regard to your earlier statements:

But lets admit I am sceptical a sugar pill will cure my cancer, but also sceptical chemotherapy will cure it as I heard its only a 30% chance (Example only).

I still believe the chemo will bring better results than a sugar pill.

Even if I had 100% belief in the sugar pill cure, I doubt highly it would effect any real cure. Same for aids, broken bnes, etc.

Do you not think that in a situation such as this one it might be better to err on the side of caution, and accept the validity of BOTH treatments, especially since they in no way conflict with each other? That way you're generally positive outlook might not only increase your chances of recovery, but also benefit your stress levels as well. Particularly as stress can play a vital part in delaying one's recovery from any sort of traumatic event!
You have gone so far as to label yourself a "skeptic", but in light of what we are learning about the lengths and bredths of the Placebo/Nocebo effect I just wonder if "pragmatist" might not be a healthier option, even for a scientist?

Pragmatist is an excellent option, but again there are so many pit falls which is why double blind peer reviewed tests are the gold standard of science, but even that is tricky with regards lacebo effect.

In all honesty I could not see myself accepting something I knew was fake, I could try but....

What im saying in a way is if you believe wearing your lucky y fronts will speed your recovery go for it

But at the same time I would want something proven scientifically to work, but thats just me being an old cynic

Regards,

Den.

But at the same time I would want something proven scientifically to work, but thats just me being an old cynic :)

He he ...In the classic Greek sense of the word I presume?

He he ..... You can take me any way you please lol

All I have to say is...

WOW! You guys are fantastic!

Den:
Thank you for being so open and honest and not blasting things away right away. You show great humility, curiousity and sincerity, imo the things a great scientist should keep in mind rather than keeping to too many "laws" otherwise where is the spirit of discovery?

All others, great posts! I have skimmed them, but there is too many here to give them each the time they deserve so I would like to make a few points.

For chinese medicine:
To be honest here is a different perspective for you:
Chinese Medicine has remained virtually -unchanged- for 2000+ years. Even during the 1900s when the west came to China they still practiced Chinese Medicine. So let's look at it this way:

With a 2000+ year history, Chinese Medicine was the -only- medicine in much of Asia (Japan, Korea, Tibet, Phillipines etc.) They never had the luxury of "modern drugs/medicine" (which to be honest did not really get into the full swing till about 1800s) and people were cured of many diseases (including the plague, tubercuolosis, polio etc.). So with those numbers alone we are talking billions of people that have been helped with Chinese Medicine.

They did not have the luxury of comparing medicines (as we do today) thus either it was Placebo effect, the medicine worked, or the patient got worse. Given those numbers (Billions helped, or had some effect by the medicine) it is statistically impossible it was -all- placebo effect. Just that alone (as Den pointed out Anectdotal and empirical evidence is one of the worse kinds, but can you ignore such numbers?) would have something to show this works, however, for something to remain unchanged for that long (to me) shows there is something there.

Modern day numbers:
How many people have died, or been killed by using Chinese Medicine? I can think of only 2 and one was caused by a western MD practicing it (he punctured a patient's heart "accidentally" the other was due to a herb that was given that was poisonous (No suit was filed b/c the herb was so identical to another it was only through chemical testing it was Mis-ided. This is one thing that prompted the FDA to step in with some regulations currently).

How many people die annually in hospitals due to:
Doctors being overworked?
Wrong drugs administered?
Mistakes in surgeries?
Etc.

1000s...

So for me personally placebo or not, Chinese Medicine is at least a safer alternative. Let's look at it financially:

Average cost of a doctor's visit:
$60 (providiing no tests or meds are used, as of 1996) http://www.bcbstx.com/employer/hccc/topic6.htm
Or check out this pdf: http://www.fchp.org/NR/rdonlyres/EC68A942-A260-47CA-82D9-E5A41D22B9F5/0/TypicalCostComMedExpense.pdf
(this is member's cost)

Average cost of a TCM doctor's visit:
$75 (including treatment, diagnosis etc.)

Average cost of Prescription drugs:
$2,322 per year (http://www.therubins.com/geninfo/eldpresc.htm)
Or
$63.59 per prescription (http://prescriptionpathway.com/)

Average cost of herbs:
$10-20 per 2 week supply ($40 per month x 12 months $480 yearly)

Possible total for one doctor's visit:
$123.59 (Meds included)

Possible total for a TCM doctor's visit:
$85-100 (Herbs included)

The above $60 visit to the Doctor does not include tests, etc. This is one reason insurance companies are now looking into CAM (especially acupuncture) b/c of its cost effetiveness and its results.

Now I simply ask, if you are to go to a Doctor (TCM or Western) knowing you could easily fall into the 20-30% avg placebo effect group, how much money would you rather spend?

******************

Now, by NO MEANS am I saying Chinese Medicine is the answer to all our problems! What I am saying is, it is valid to look into about how it complements Western Medicine. If I have a patient that comes into me bleeding to death from severe trauma (car accident) I will NOT put needles into them! I would get them to a hospital.

Or if they came feeling as though a Heart Attack was coming on, cancer etc. They WILL BE getting Western treatment. Western Medicine is FANTASTIC in these areas! However, in general pain management, infertility, digestive diseases, hormonal imbalances, they tend to be lacking. Their therapies are good (drugs mostly) but they don't work for everyone, nor are they without side effects. This is where Chinese Medicine can come in.

So a bit of a different perspective on Chinese Medicine,
Very few (if any) Medicines can claim to have such a long track record. And very few (if any) can claim to have so much research (granted not scientific, but life) done in it. There is a reason it is around.

Now I can't find the answers to placebo effect and animals.

Acupuncture alleviates various animal illnesses too, animals it has been used on is:
Horses, cows, cats, dogs etc.

Now dogs can have some placebo effect (I guess) b/c they are so "open" to commands etc.

However,
In general they are NOT considered sentient beings, so how can they be healed by placebo effect? I really would like to find out.

Taoquan,

THANKYOU!!!!

Den:
Thank you for being so open and honest and not blasting things away right away. You show great humility, curiousity and sincerity, imo the things a great scientist should keep in mind rather than keeping to too many "laws" otherwise where is the spirit of discovery?


It is extremely rare as a practicig sceptic I get feedback of that design, I am normally tarred with the 'closed minded cynic' brush,

so thankyou :)

Den.

ps forgot to add 'placebo' by Dylan evans covers the animal side and acupuncture.

There are likely better books but to me it covers the topic well :)

Den,

NP, anyone that is willing to at least listen is okay in my book. Too often are people stuck in their own heads and egos and make judgements before others even get to speak. I am glad we can have a good conversation and not fall into an argument.

Sorry Den,

Funds are low being a Full-time student and all...can you give me a brief synopsis of what the book says about it? I may have to wait till the holidays to get it :)

Also, the idea of placebo and mind healing (through placebo) is also interesting just because to paraphrase some ancient chinese meditation thought "When the mind is free of worry the body is free of disease."

Hi Taoquan,

basically agrees that studies on rats do show some limited placebo effects, hard to condense all the info as its spread throughout the book.

Heres some links to medical podcasts you may find interesting.
(Disclaimer: They are not my opinions but are a credible source of info!) :)

Den.
http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/09a765cc2e3491b0d5144bb3c9538152-26.html#unique-entry-id-26
http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/2eddeb5b04ea21332c46e5f10bafc703-20.html#unique-entry-id-20
http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/8ebeb361e137156dbf1a149d519d78f3-7.html#unique-entry-id-7
http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/ece582b45130d7d05824d2a4cbcf2ed7-6.html#unique-entry-id-6
http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/86a7e46140668fbce2b4ae2cfe7470cc-4.html#unique-entry-id-4

I have put links in wrong order so start bottom up please.

First is placebo, the rest are acupuncture podcasts, Starting from March this year so pretty bang up to date considering the other link I offered, Again I supply them for your consideration and weighing of evidence only, there may be more authoritative links out there :) but I have found this person a reliable source and he does leave a list of sources if you go to his main page and look for them.

Regards,

Den.