Paris,

Superb! Must collect them for my book ;-)

I suppose what got me on the whole path was this order:

1) Spiritual/ideas and philosophy

-where I started out had no teachers on meditation etc. So I started with the MAs and they Mythos around them.

2) Next came the fighting/healing aspects of it:

-I liked learning about the body and how it moves, how its put together etc. as well as learning how to take it apart

3) How I follow my MA now:

By this simple quote "A True Martial artist knows how to heal as well as harm. A Martial Artist that knows either alone is like a man on one leg, he is out of balance."

I know most "want to fight" but also because you learn about your own body you inherently begin to learn about others and healing. For example how many of you have given advice about injuries? Just because of your knowledge about them (from personal exp.). So in essence you are learning to heal on some scale.


For me personally, other areas (sports, working out etc) offered this, but not as in depth as I would like to go.

You are very kind, Pete. I understand your argument and I can certainly empathize with it (my own club has a syllabus with techniques!), but I am going to challenge it nonetheless. Surely couldn't you get this freedom of expression through painting, drawing, sculpting, writing, contemporary dance, acting improvisation or some form of physical theatre. Surely these activities have more room for freedom of expression than martial arts, which often have certain restrictions in place.


Its a clever argument Jamie and I can see where you are coming from. But look at it this way -

Painting - first time you pick up a brush you need to learn strokes, how to hold a brush, how to mix colours, how to get dimensions. Once you have mastered these basic things then you can go onto oil, watercolour, etc

Sculpting - You need to learn how to hold the chisel, learn the ways the rock has formed.... Some go onto sculpt with everyday objects others cant beat a fine bit of marble!

Contemporary Dance - Again you need to learn the basics... position, timing, working with a partner,

Acting - Learning the lines, showing emotion, taking on the character, making sure your back is not to the audience.

Martial arts - you have far more experience then me in various styles but we have one thing in common like any other martial artist. There was a day when both you and me were in our first class and shown that a punch is far more then just clenching a fist, a kick can be delivered in various ways at different heights....... Your first form???

What im getting at is everything has a set of rules, everything. From this after a period of time (some of course longer then others) you can start to alter of even replace these rules... and that Jamie is where im at right now with my MA training - free self expression...... and its what I love the most!

Ive just realised that everything I have just said doesnt answer your question.

hmmmmmm.... Im switching the PC off now but ill give this one some thought.

I am a musician, I have played far longer than I have practised MA, MA has given me social confidence which just playing music and playing gigs did not. MA does teach me practical fighting skills which add's to a different angle of confidence.


That is your personal experience and I am happy you feel that way, but I don't see that martial arts offers as big a sphere of confidence as many other activities

Yes it is my personal experiance, and I know your from a performing background. You say that you get more expression from performing arts... I agree of course, what I was saying is that you get a different kind of confidence with a martial art. Because you learn to handle yourself, because you work your body, learn combat and learn the physicall limits of your body, you gain a kind of social confidence, a street confidence, a walking alone at night confidence.

I'll give you an exclusive skill martial art gives you that others do not if that's what your asking....
NOTHING!!

There is nothing martial arts gives you that others can't. The question is always asked, does being a good MA make you a good fighter? not necessarily so even fighting isn't 'exclusive'. People will find their ways, my good lady loves to dance ballroom, I have tried a few steps with her and the movement of the hips, the position of the center is very similar to the martial arts. OK they don't actually hit people but they learn the body movement control, just add moving off the line which they kind of already do and you got a martial art...

I actually wrote a blog about how similar martial arts (mainly Aikido) is to creative playing (guitar). They compliment each other because they have similar qualities. The only thing that makes a martial arts different to most things is the combat practise, but the skill doesn't necessarily benefit you any different to dancing, or acting etc, just depends how fit and lucky you are, unless of course your a trained killing machine who has actual hand to hand combat fights everyday!

So I guess MA stands out because you punch and kick and sometimes use weapons... But its a good way to learn skills and in my opinion very enjoyable!

Yes it is my personal experiance, and I know your from a performing background. You say that you get more expression from performing arts... I agree of course, what I was saying is that you get a different kind of confidence with a martial art. Because you learn to handle yourself, because you work your body, learn combat and learn the physicall limits of your body, you gain a kind of social confidence, a street confidence, a walking alone at night confidence.

A half decent actor can pull this off and they do, no problem. I get your point though and it does not completely contradict mine. An actor can pull it off because they are feigning an attitude whereas perhaps a martial artist is being more honest in his confidence (or self-deluding ;-) ). A martial artist's confidence in the "street" or "alone at night" stems from a supposed specific ability to be able to handle himself in a physical confrontation. And there we have it. He gets his confidence because he learns how to fight, whether or not he will have to is not the point. He has trained to learn how to fight so he can be confident.


I'll give you an exclusive skill martial art gives you that others do not if that's what your asking....
NOTHING!!

There is nothing martial arts gives you that others can't. The question is always asked, does being a good MA make you a good fighter? not necessarily so even fighting isn't 'exclusive'.

To quote senior BCA coach, ex-guardian angel etc., etc. Mo Teague "Most people in martial arts cannot fight". However, what other receational activity has combat, fighting and, dare I say it, violence at its centre? Don't say crime

People will find their ways, my good lady loves to dance ballroom, I have tried a few steps with her and the movement of the hips, the position of the center is very similar to the martial arts. OK they don't actually hit people but they learn the body movement control, just add moving off the line which they kind of already do and you got a martial art...

Not disagreeing with this at all, but this isn't the point and it doesn't answer the question. I didn't say anything about other activities not lending support to martial arts training.

I actually wrote a blog about how similar martial arts (mainly Aikido) is to creative playing (guitar). They compliment each other because they have similar qualities. The only thing that makes a martial arts different to most things is the combat practise, but the skill doesn't necessarily benefit you any different to dancing, or acting etc, just depends how fit and lucky you are, unless of course your a trained killing machine who has actual hand to hand combat fights everyday!

So I guess MA stands out because you punch and kick and sometimes use weapons... But its a good way to learn skills and in my opinion very enjoyable!

The highlighted parts of your writing cut straight to the point. The rest is nice gravy and raises discussions for other topics, but are not what I was asking about. They just serve as red herrings. All they do is further convince me that civilian martial arts subculture breeds a philosophy of ambiguity. Please read my article on "Philosophy and Ancient Wisdom" for more on the history of this problem.

While studying martial arts may help you become more confident, that's essentially a by-product. I didn't start training to become more confident.As I mentioned previously, I started to learn the art of fighting.I may not be a particularly competent fighter but that's still primarily why I go.I can get confidence and fitness and an insight into another philosophy, but I go to fight.
I may be wrong, but in some areas there is almost a reluctance to say that you train to fight.

While studying martial arts may help you become more confident, that's essentially a by-product. I didn't start training to become more confident.As I mentioned previously, I started to learn the art of fighting.I may not be a particularly competent fighter but that's still primarily why I go.I can get confidence and fitness and an insight into another philosophy, but I go to fight.
I may be wrong, but in some areas there is almost a reluctance to say that you train to fight.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I used to get that all the time with people in the martial arts community. You get looked down on for discussing violence and laughed at when you discuss self defence. All the time we read about martial arts being all about honesty, integrity and focus, and yet what I keep seeing, reading and hearing is the opposite.

Interesting that you mention by-product. Many martial arts students and instructors assume that self-defence is the by-product!

Ive just realised that everything I have just said doesnt answer your question.

Pete, no worries at least you realized what you were doing and had the confidence to admit it Tiredness aside don't you find it fascinating that you did that though. Ryu here has done the same thing - and Su Lin has put it in a nutshell "in some areas there is almost a reluctance to say that you train to fight". Now that's an interesting area of discussion by itself: the martial arts student psyche!

Anyway, you raised some great stuff in your post that would make for another discussion topic. Particularly this point:

What im getting at is everything has a set of rules, everything. From this after a period of time (some of course longer then others) you can start to alter of even replace these rules... and that Jamie is where im at right now with my MA training - free self expression...... and its what I love the most!

and your ideas about basics. I'd love to discuss them with you.

I think the "self expression" thing is interesting. As I was messing about with different applications at kung fu last night, I don't think I was developing my self expression. We were doing our drills of set hand/kick blocks (syllabus stuff) but we started playing around with it to see what did and didn't work.Thing is ,I don't see it as self expression, I see it as developing my martial skill.

I may have a simplistic view of things. I mean, when I am practising my forms time and time again, I don't see that as expressing myself either, I see it as building strength and endurance as well as training myself in the applications of that form.

I sometimes worry if I am not missing something that other people seem to get from practising martial arts. Or perhaps I have just been trained in a no nonsense type approach? This cuts across my kung fu,mma and my muay thai practise ,all my teachers seem very similar but practise different arts.

Maybe I'm just an ma thicky

I think the "self expression" thing is interesting. As I was messing about with different applications at kung fu last night, I don't think I was developing my self expression. We were doing our drills of set hand/kick blocks (syllabus stuff) but we started playing around with it to see what did and didn't work.Thing is ,I don't see it as self expression, I see it as developing my martial skill.

I may have a simplistic view of things. I mean, when I am practising my forms time and time again, I don't see that as expressing myself either, I see it as building strength and endurance as well as training myself in the applications of that form.

If you are still practicing a traditional martial art and enjoying it then I would like to point you in the direction of my good friend Iain Abernethy. Iain may not practice traditional Chinese martial arts, but his approach to pre-arranged forms in Karate is very commonsensical, practical and, to the best of his abilities, historically accurate.

Have a look at these articles with regards to his reality-based approach to kata - the same approach is transferable to forms, patterns, drills etc.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_25.asp http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_7.asp http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_8.asp http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_14.asp

Maybe I'm just an ma thicky

Then I will join you in remedial class

So Jamie,

I am getting from you this:

"Martial arts is the art of learning how to kill. Anything else is 'smoke and mirrors'" Am I getting this right?

If I am then I agree with you, I believe MAs were originally developed to learn how to kill and defend yourself (or others) and that the later ideas came in. I think it is somewhat similar to some ideas on the Samurai Class and how they were taught to kill. However, once they weren't needed as much anymore they went to a bit more of a philisophical lifestyle trying to figure out the meaning of their 'art'.

Su Lin wrote:
I can learn to fight.