I know, ridiculous notion ey!

It's funny because despite what makes martial arts stand out, I started learning for other reasons than to fight.

And I honestsly mean that, I wanted to find a path to peace and harmony, Aikido seemed like a good philosophical practise to start that with which related back to my playing.

Although fighting might be the part that stands out in MA, you could learn how to fight by going out and fighting people, wrestle pigs, kick a bear in the nuts....

Thing is that MA has got alot of aspects within it, I personally don't think anything is exclusive to it, what is exclusive is the fact you can learn so many things in one place...

So Jamie,

I am getting from you this:

"Martial arts is the art of learning how to kill. Anything else is 'smoke and mirrors'" Am I getting this right?

Kill (military or survivalist martial arts), subdue (restraining martial arts) or win a competitive match (boxing, wrestling arts etc.) Yep that pretty much sums it up. Heathen ain't I All of these have a lengthy and verifiable history.


If I am then I agree with you, I believe MAs were originally developed to learn how to kill and defend yourself (or others) and that the later ideas came in. I think it is somewhat similar to some ideas on the Samurai Class and how they were taught to kill. However, once they weren't needed as much anymore they went to a bit more of a philisophical lifestyle trying to figure out the meaning of their 'art'.

The thing is violence is limited and civilian violence is not a common occurence for most in the developed world. Mind you, as I wrote in my article, you won't find much stuff about being a kind and humble human being in Musashi's writings. What you said in that last paragraph is similar to something I wrote four years ago in a piece called "Martial Academia". However, it must be remembered that the martial arts in China and Japan had to change because both countries wanted to break with the factional fighting of their past, which martial arts had become a big part of. Japan adopted the "Do" attitude towards martial arts towards the end of the 19th century and China had similar ideas with its attempts to modernize the country in the early 20th century.

Ryusui_Ryu wrote:


Although fighting might be the part that stands out in MA, you could learn how to fight by going out and fighting people, wrestle pigs, kick a bear in the nuts....



Cheers RR.
Think I may have pee'd myself laughing.

It's funny because despite what makes martial arts stand out, I started learning for other reasons than to fight.

And I honestsly mean that, I wanted to find a path to peace and harmony, Aikido seemed like a good philosophical practise to start that with which related back to my playing.

That is the way many martial arts are advertised and promoted. Aikido is a prime example of this (damn those Canadian hippies as my old Dentokan Ju Jutsu sensei used to say), second perhaps to Tajiquan. However, I am curious that you didn't see the paradox. I mean for all the harmony in its name, the strong spiritual side endorsed by its found and the graceful images of hakama clad characters flying through the air, it still doesn't evoke the most peaceful images compared to say a yoga or meditation class. Each to their own eh

Although fighting might be the part that stands out in MA, you could learn how to fight by going out and fighting people, wrestle pigs, kick a bear in the nuts....

Not the point. These are not services you are seeking. My dad has a couple of bears that will teach you how to become a rugby ball, but that's another story.

Thing is that MA has got alot of aspects within it, I personally don't think anything is exclusive to it, what is exclusive is the fact you can learn so many things in one place...

Now we are onto something. Ever gone into a shop and been so dazzled by the various items on sale that you forgot what you came in for? Medals, belts, competitions all begin to blur the student's original objective - and then they get the patronizing philosophical babble that can make them feel guilty or ashamed to have ever considered that they may have ever wanted to learn martial arts in order to fight. And, with this in mind, is it any wonder why so many martial arts schools teach ineffecient self defence fighting methods.

I see where your going with this Jamie.
I think that in order for MA to maintain it's integrity, both side's both violent and peaceful should be understood. Sure people are dazzled by the peaceful, light fluffy side of the arts, but these student tend to be the once a week on n off type of people no?

Once I realised that there was more to MA than this harmonious and peacekeeping side, I wanted to cmmit my life to training. I may not be a good fighter, but I train in the best way I can so as the martial arts teachings and skills can live on and hopefully help people by realising there's more to life than earning millions and being two faced, TV hogs that relate more to eastenders than to real people... So that people can think about what they do before they do it, like trying to cut you up on the road so they save 1 car distance in time....

To be honest I suppose deep down, regardless of what happens, we all like to think we could kick someone's ass if we had to, or at least have a good chance if puch comes to shove??

Are you saying that despite the other elements of the evolved arts, we only really seek a fighting style that will work?

I see where your going with this Jamie.

Good, I didn't want to get accused of being ambiguous

I think that in order for MA to maintain it's integrity, both side's both violent and peaceful should be understood.

I'll just settle for honesty. I'd prefer it if some of them would just say, "I teach this cos I have never grown out of throwing tantrums in my jimjams". One very well known and experienced person on the UK martial arts scene, who clearly not above self-depreciative comedy, told me "I teach delusion. I teach people who like to dress up and pretend they can fight". Obviously he was having a laugh, but many a true word spoken in jest and all that... As we have discussed before, however, the peaceful side comes later after the graft.

Once I realised that there was more to MA than this harmonious and peacekeeping side, I wanted to cmmit my life to training. I may not be a good fighter, but I train in the best way I can so as the martial arts teachings and skills can live on and hopefully help people by realising there's more to life than earning millions and being two faced, TV hogs that relate more to eastenders than to real people... So that people can think about what they do before they do it, like trying to cut you up on the road so they save 1 car distance in time....

Grumpy old man-jutsu! I like it and I agree 100% Hate to sound like a cynic here, but I have met more than my fair share of martial artists who see fit the cyborg nation PCs you just listed.
I have to say I am very interested in your reverse journey. Am I right in saying that you sought out a martial art for peace and harmony, and then got more into the "fighting side".

To be honest I suppose deep down, regardless of what happens, we all like to think we could kick someone's ass if we had to, or at least have a good chance if puch comes to shove??

Yep, a good amount of martial arts demands come from insecurity. The sad truth is many students then replace one form of insecurity for another (see the cult thread). And many of them do not lose that insecurity through formal martial arts training. Take Geoff Thompson, he thought his fear of confrontation would go once he got his black belt. Dennis Jones explained to me a very interesting point in the interview I have on my site: martial artists are generally timid people.

Are you saying that despite the other elements of the evolved arts, we only really seek a fighting style that will work?

At least on a subconscious level I would say most students do. They kind of expect it in the same way as I would expect to learn how to swim from a swimming coach if I went for swimming lessons - and not a walk around the pool going through the motions along with a discussion on the philosophy of marine life.

Am I right in saying that you sought out a martial art for peace and harmony, and then got more into the "fighting side".
Yes you are right, although the softness and harmony is the ultimate goal in order to perfect the soft style I have chosen to develope at this time, the practical apps I have learnt so far has captured my interest even further. In fact me and a few training friends are at a stage know where we want to really test things, so will probably end up having some kind of full contact sessions at some point. I am human and although I look for peace I understand that we have aggression and anger, and this must be catered to and not suppressed!

People start martial arts for a variety of reasons, but often they continue to train as they want to get better at the art itself rather than the original reason they started. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing in itself. I just think that people should always continue to question why they are doing what they are doing and whether they are genuinely achieving what they want.

Other than fighting techniques (effective or otherwise), I don't think there is anything that I specifically get from martial arts that I couldn't get from other activities.

Other than fighting techniques (effective or otherwise), I don't think there is anything that I specifically get from martial arts that I couldn't get from other activities but you can get it all from MA if you want it, no?

Just gonna drop in my two lumps of manure here for what they're worth.

I learned what I feel to be a valuable lesson a good few years ago, on an MA forum far, far away.

I thought I had the right to point out to people the fallacies of their practices.

Rule Number 1/ I believe in everyones right to practice and believe whatever they damn well please.

The problem lies, some would say in MA, that there is a lot of superfluous stuff going on.
Thing is, if you grab people by the scruff of their Gi and rub their noses in it, one of two things happens.
They either
A/ Become even more resistant to change, or
B/ Now having found 'the holy grail' feel they have the right to ignore Rule Number 1 and start rubbing other peoples noses in it.

There are indeed many people wandering about in a world where they delude themselves about their abilities.
Who am I to burst their bubble?

If you spend a lot of time concerned about other peoples practice, doesn't that mean you have free time to concentrate more on your own?

By all means focus on what Martial Arts are rather than what they are not.

Ryusui_Ryu wrote:
Other than fighting techniques (effective or otherwise), I don't think there is anything that I specifically get from martial arts that I couldn't get from other activities but you can get it all from MA if you want it, no?

Yes, I get what I want out of martial arts, otherwise I wouldn't do it. I just don't get any special physical or philosophical buzz from martial arts that I don't get from running or doing weights or fitness. I just find martial arts more fun!