This is a conversation scanthor and I started through PMs and we wanted to post it for others input as well.

This was Scanthor's question after I gave him my b/g in the MAs and how I tend to study more for the spiritual aspects.

"The spiritual portion is a life time of study or how do you see that? How do you explain the spiritual essence of study or practice combining what you do as a martial artist? Is it a personal experience for each individual--Is it a way of strengthening ones spirit as well as the body? I empty my cup to be filled. I have never practiced what you do. I find it fascinating…."

1)"The spiritual portion is a life time of study or how do you see that?"

I see MAs themselves as a lifetime of study, so spiritual or not you are doing something as a lifestyle. The difference for me, is that adding the spiritual aspects to MAs is the study of life.

To me this is the balance of Yin and Yang, you cannot learn to kill without learning how to live. My personal theory is this:

MAs were developed to learn how to kill, plain and simple. You either fought or you died. However, because of the tough climates when MAs were being developed, there were people that trained out of them out of necessity and did not like to think of killing. But they had to or they (or their families) could die.

So how to deal with this? This is where the spiritual practices started getting intertwined with the MAs. These became a coping mechanism, for people that did not want to kill. They simply had to believe (for their own sanity) that the person they killed was going to a better place. This began the studies of life and spirit, to the point of meditation and MAs getting intertwined.

This is just a personal idea, but I ask you to test it. How do you think you would feel if you had to actually kill someone? Even if it was to defend your family...how would you live knowing you took someone else's family away? How would you seek justification for what he did? Even though (in modern day) the laws of man, may forgive you, could your own spirit?

2 "How do you explain the spiritual essence of study or practice combining what you do as a martial artist?"

I think the above explains my own views. Can I kill if need be? Absolutely. Would I if I had to? Absolutely. Would I feel remorse and sadness for the death? Absolutely. If I could I would comfort the family of the deceased.

To me, by studing MAs you are inherently studying the spiritual aspects (though it may not be emphasized). MAs (no matter the type) tend to bring up questions for you to deal with spiritually (such as the above), physically (weight training etc.), emotionally (how would I feel if I did this) etc.

This of course is my own personal opinion, but if these questions don't come up, you are not seeking the deeper aspects of the art.

3) "Is it a personal experience for each individual--Is it a way of strengthening ones spirit as well as the body?"

Traditionally the body and spirit are inseparable, so if you "let the art teach you" you will be training spirit. The best example of this I heard from a Taoist Priest from Wudang he said:

"The body can be likened to a Motel. Say you are out on the road and traveling and you stop at Motel after Motel. Now, when you stop do you -want- (not whether or not you can afford) to stay in a 1-3 star Motel? Or do you want to stay in a 5 or even 10 star Hotel?

This is what the Spirit thinks, the body is the Motel. Are you going to give the Spirit a 3 Star or even 1 Star Motel to stay in? Do you think it would stay? No, the Spirit wants a 10 Star Motel, so this is why we work on the body, so the Spirit remains intact and full. This is why in chronic disease you see people that are 'not quite themselves' and they slowly drift away."

And yes, it does work both ways to an extent. If you strengthen the Spirit, the body will begin to have a drive to be healthier. The physical body will begin to develop other beneficial cravings etc. However, in the case of chronic disease, it is necessary to "remodel" the body before you bring the Spirit back. You NEVER try to bring someone's spirit back to a body ravaged by disease, this could cause severe shock (phyiscally, spiritually).

In the west we are seeing that people with chronic disease tend to disassociate, in eastern traditions this is seen as the Spirit leaving a ravaged body.

4) "I empty my cup to be filled. I have never practiced what you do. I find it fascinating…."

Thank you for your kind words, I look forward to continuing this discussion and seeing how you answer. :)

Compliments to your article, Joe, nicely done.

May opinion is simple. I don’t believe we own anything spiritual. Because we really don’t control anything very well at least not for long. We all have a void within ourselves, something is missing. We would like to believe we are in control but were really not. We can make good choices or bad choices and what the out come is? Well we have to wait and see. If I was a god I would know what the out come would be. I have met many people in the martial arts who claim to be their own god. They tell me I’m a god too. Well if that’s true, how come I don’t know that..
Man creates things to answer questions about his own insecurities. And quite frankly, I believe there is only one truth and were missing it. I don’t feel I own my own soul because, I didn’t create myself. Life and how it was designed is the true maestro and I really don’t think we have come to grips to who or that may truly be yet. As it seems right now we have a lot of high tech toys , but were still the same brats we’ve always been. Were like pimples on the butt of the earth. There is no distinction between good or evil and it obvious both exist…. Nobody cares about the Loss Of Innocence. “Train up a child in the way they should go. Then when they are old they will not depart from it.” Martial arts was once a way of developing good character, self confidence. The Shaolin Temple was not connected to the government who wanted to kill! They believed in civility and the sanctity of life. Martial arts is not everything. Humbling yourself does not mean you can’t kill if you have to. Giving your own life for someone else would be an honor for something good. There is nothing wrong with being the good guy. It is not a weakness, but a true strength. Ego is the death of the spirit…..If your willing to kill, then you must be willing to die as well. There is no perfection, only improvement.

Jeff

Hi you guys!

I think I've been wanting to start this Thread myself, but just hadn't really known where I wanted to start off. Spirituality. As a kid it fascinated and repeled me. I was brought up very strictly Catholic, but I never seemed to be able to find any real faith in that or in any other religion that curiousity led me to look investigate. Spirituality? Faith? Where did people go, within themselves, in order to find these qualities? And why were they seemingly missing from inside of me?? Where did their' wherewithal to believe come from at all, when I could believe in nothing unless there were facts, or figures, or some other kind of recognisable proof?
Well in light of what I've just said you might be wondering if I'm really the best person for the job of defending the spirituality of the martial arts.
But you'd be wrong.
Why?
Because through martial arts to some extent I think I may have found a degree of spirituality that I certainly never previously possessed?!
Through Taichi, through meditation, through various stretching and breathing excersises, massage, and a host of self-analysis and mind/body focus techniques, I have been able to reach more deeply into myself than I would ever previously have believed possible. And What I have found there, for the first time, is some spiritual "thing" that I can and DO have Faith in.
That something is Me.

A wrong diagnosis which turned out to be a prolapsed disc with complications, resulted in nerve damage to my left leg from the waist down - for two years after that I was pretty much unable to walk at all - and for several years afterwards I was intent on little else but Healing myself. At all costs.
Due to pain and hoplessness I was feeling I KNOW that at that time I pretty much even disregarded thoughts of my family, my friends, and the rest of the outside world. Instead I did little else but concentrate on dealing with a fog of pain. Pain that just never went away. A lot of medical people believed that the resulting curvature of my spine couldn't be fixed, because of the degree of nerve damage that had been sustained, but for the next two years I worked tirelessly on my own body, spending hundreds and hundreds of hours massaging and excersising my almost completely numb left leg and hip, pouring every ounce of strength I could into stretching and kneeding, and generally trying to excite SOME feeling into the seemingly dead muscle tissue, whilst simultaneously trying to focus really hard on "waking up" the parts of me that my brain just seemed to have completely lost touch with. I didn't know then about Chi then, I had never heard of it in fact, but I did try to focus on pouring life and energy back into the offending parts of myself - which at first nevertheless stubbornly refused to respond. But then eventually it did begin to reap some rewards. At first where I had felt nothing I instead began to feel some slight, throbbing, yet incessant pain. Not exactly nice I'll grant you, but it felt good. After all it was better than feeling nothing, right? So at least it was a start. In fact absurdly enough it was probably the pain that gave me hope. No, more than hope, it started to give me BELIEF. Perhaps I could fix this thing after all!
At about this time that I also began to learn Taichi - mostly for relaxation and meditation - and by the most amazing good fortune it turned out to be the best decision I'd ever made. My teacher was wonderful. As he explained some of the theories behind the Forms, and taught me about Healing, and Meridians, and of course about Chi, it just felt like I was coming home. Here I was being told stuff that I could really understand and even feel that I already knew, in a way. I felt so at home with the principles that we discussed, it just felt familiar somehow, I KNEW about the healing energies of Chi that he was describing! I knew because I had felt it! After that I started to believe that the things I was doing really were the right things and that if I just kept on doing them eventually I couldn't fail to heal.

It's been five years now so it's taken five whole years of my life really, but I'm just about there now, almost fully fit again, and everything is feeling very good, I feel like I've been given a second chance to live my life. And with some serious intent this time, to truly live it to the full! :)

The entire experience has done more though than just give me back my health, it's shown me who I am, what I'm capable of, and it's given me great insight into the immense power and strength of human belief. For this alone I will be never-endingly grateful.
I think that perhaps I used to just take "Living" for granted - but not any more. Today I feel happier, healthier, fitter, more at peace with myself (and others), and filled with a clearer sense of purpose than I've ever felt before. I even look and feel younger than I did say five, six or even seven years ago due to all the excersises, my training, my taichi, and all the "toning up" that's now become a part of my daily life!
And the thing is none of this would have happened if I hadn't gone against my logical nature in the first place, if I hadn't reached outside my comfort zones and gone out on a limb, for the first time actually believing in something that I couldn't prove. I could so easily have just accepted that my injuries were more or less permanent, and just never tried to prove that that supposition might be wrong. I CHOSE to believe that there was more to the human mind and spirit than really met the eye and that therefore anything was possible. I chose to believe that we humans, all of us, have the power to Heal ourselves. I even often wonder now if we don't perhaps also have the power of increased longevity? Who knows? All I know is that I for one am willing to believe it. after all it can't hurt, right?? I mean, to what degree MIGHT it be possible to extend human life if we really pour our mind, body and spirit wholeheartedly into the task? Call it the Spiritual Placebo effect if you like (see Placebo" thread in the Off Topic Forum for more that one, lol), but I for one started to believe the age old myths concerning Spirituality and mystical healing powers of Martial Arts and through that began to understand that all humans are ultimately spiritual in nature.

What's more, I appeal to you all, too! Just for the hell of it, if nothing else?? After all what have you got to loose? Why NOT strive to fond a more spiritual nature to your chosen art? Perhaps after all it really DOES have a lot more to offer you than just fitness, discipline, and means to defend yourself, etc?

P,S. To any of you who do choose to set out of this spiritual "holy grail" of martial arts quests don't forget to get back to me in a couple of hundred years or so just to let me know how you go

P.P.S. To a particular ME member who is currently in need of some healing - you already are one of the most positive people I've NEVER actually met?!? - so just you keep on doing what you do my friend. Good luck and best wishes!

Paris

I know what you are saying, I had a ruptured disk and it healed after lots of pain and rest. It took me almost three years to feel the same as I was before. I wish I could say it was some kind of spiritual healing response. But, it just took my body time to heal itself. And before it happened, I have always been training. I am a very spiritual person, I believe in the word faith and who it applies to in my life. I didn't create my body. The body was created to heal itself, we just have to do the right thing to let it or help it happen. However, everybody experiences different things, you may be right.:)

Scanthor

You really put a lot of feeling into what you said. If you believe in something strong enough, I believe you can accomplish anything. Even stimulate the healing process as well. Our bodies can do marvelous things. Another branch of faith...

S'not about getting knocked down, it's about getting back up.

Call that spiritual if you will.

I call it the 'desire to live and sod the critics.

It's so great to see people becoming more aware of things outside the physical body we have enbedded ourselves in!

Some very nice paragraphs about how thinking outside the box and freeing the mind has helped people work on a different level.

Spirituality is all about awareness... our path of awareness is to learn about ourselves and eachother. It doesn't have to be through MA obviously but MA helps us understand ourselfs, and reach our potential as human beings.

I am a musician, as I play I flow, I meditate while playing, the music flows through me, I don't think about it I just let it happen, I am but a conductor for energy and music. Because I feel this amazing ability I understand that there is something higher working through me. Not a scientific energy, not a logical thought process but a sub concious open free moving energy which translates itself into music in this example.

With MA I have a similar feeling but as I have been playing for 13 years and only training in MA for 5years the levels are different but there is a definite realtionship between the two states of being with playing and creating music and MA.

Martial ARTS, creative ARTS anything which allows the creative and expressive part of ourselfs open up and become free is what gives us insight, we learn more through experiance because we don't imprison ourselfs with one track thinking and practice, this allows us to see the elements of the world that others can not because we can colour outside the lines if we want,and we can colour inside the lines if we want. It gives us new experiances and feelings to which we feel more freedom, less fear, less empty...

We may not be able to answer all the big questions like why are we here etc, but we can discover the insight that it doesn't matter so long as we pursue peace and enlightenment, fate will guide ourpaths and things will happen when they are meant to.
We are part of a huge comic process which is far larger and more significant than our little world, but we are part of it and what goes on out there in the universe, is happening right here within ourselves. We become part of this world, not just on it.

There is no good and evil, there is only cause and effect. If a giant planet invades our solar system and causes utter choas and destroys most of the life on this world, would it be evil? seeing as it is a natural phenomenon of this universe? through the catastrophy would we not re-build and learn from previous mistakes and keep evolving? are we alive because we evolve?
Through this spritual awareness found from the training of the soul withing MA or Music whatever skill or art you perform and commit your life to, we need not fear death, as its only a transistion, we need not want more than we need to survive as there is no benefit from greed.

So much can be learnt from many aspects of training in arts and skills, MA happens to be one of the better ones which I feel we can learn more about ourselves and inner peace etc...

Also as a footnote... anyone had any outer body experiances or lucid dreams? Astral travelling? is this not our spirit?

Truly sincere and open honesty replies.

There are great points here and I want to discuss them when I can give you all the time they deserve! :)

Scanthor wrote:
Compliments to your article, Joe, nicely done.

Thank you

May opinion is simple. I don’t believe we own anything spiritual. Because we really don’t control anything very well at least not for long. We all have a void within ourselves, something is missing. We would like to believe we are in control but were really not. We can make good choices or bad choices and what the out come is? Well we have to wait and see. If I was a god I would know what the out come would be. I have met many people in the martial arts who claim to be their own god. They tell me I’m a god too. Well if that’s true, how come I don’t know that..

I agree with your opinions to a point, but since these are opinions please don't feel as though I am saying "Right or wrong" here. :)

I agree, we don't "own" anything spiritual, not even our souls, yes, they are our -own- but we don't claim ownership to them. In nearly every Religion our soul belongs to the creator and that interweaves our souls with all others. So to this extent I agree with what you had mentioned above.

I agree with most of the rest too, however, I don't agree that we are not "gods." In every the Religions I have studied all have that basic idea or premise behind it. "We are meant for greater things." For example:

Taoism = Immortals
Buddhism = Bodhittsatvas
Judaism = There is an idea in Judaism: "We were put here to finish God's work"
Christianity = "Thus we were created in God's image"
(In fact a branch of Catholicism called Mystical Theology, believes that it is through Meditation that we can become closer to God. Some branches even say we become Gods, through knowing God and based on the 'Created in God's image' idea above. However, we can NEVER have full Divinity of God.)
Shamanism = "A Shaman walks hand in hand with the Creator"

This basic idea for us to be something greater, if not God-like is pretty prevalent in most Religions. However, it never states this is through -physical- transformation, but all religions speak of it as a Spiritual Transformation (Born again Christians would be one example in Christianity, the others remain the same).


Man creates things to answer questions about his own insecurities. And quite frankly, I believe there is only one truth and were missing it. I don’t feel I own my own soul because, I didn’t create myself. Life and how it was designed is the true maestro and I really don’t think we have come to grips to who or that may truly be yet.

I agree, but this is not a -we- idea, for only -you- can "come to grips" with your own self. I have found that personally it is through knowing the self you begin to understand Spirit. Even within the ideas of Western religion, this is prevalent (if you choose to look for it, check out St. Catherine of Siena for example).

To me it is simple, we were all created in some way shape or form. We are all a part of life in some way, shape or form, if we want to know either all we have to do is look at ourself. As you point out later, Man is currently too caught up in technology to take time and examine himself. He is more concerned with the World of the Flesh, rather than that of the Spirit.

Not to mention as one of my teachers once said "If you take a good long hard look at yourself...you may not like it."

Or there is a Zen saying "What do you want to be enlightened for? You may not like it!"

As it seems right now we have a lot of high tech toys , but were still the same brats we’ve always been. Were like pimples on the butt of the earth. There is no distinction between good or evil and it obvious both exist…. Nobody cares about the Loss Of Innocence. “Train up a child in the way they should go. Then when they are old they will not depart from it.” Martial arts was once a way of developing good character, self confidence. The Shaolin Temple was not connected to the government who wanted to kill! They believed in civility and the sanctity of life. Martial arts is not everything. Humbling yourself does not mean you can’t kill if you have to. Giving your own life for someone else would be an honor for something good. There is nothing wrong with being the good guy. It is not a weakness, but a true strength. Ego is the death of the spirit…..If your willing to kill, then you must be willing to die as well. There is no perfection, only improvement.

Jeff

Great points above!

Paris,
Paris wrote:
Hi you guys!

I think I've been wanting to start this Thread myself, but just hadn't really known where I wanted to start off. Spirituality. As a kid it fascinated and repeled me. I was brought up very strictly Catholic, but I never seemed to be able to find any real faith in that or in any other religion that curiousity led me to look investigate. Spirituality? Faith? Where did people go, within themselves, in order to find these qualities? And why were they seemingly missing from inside of me?? Where did their' wherewithal to believe come from at all, when I could believe in nothing unless there were facts, or figures, or some other kind of recognisable proof?

I too felt this same way once, till I struck out on my own to find my own way. This brought about much realization for me.

Well in light of what I've just said you might be wondering if I'm really the best person for the job of defending the spirituality of the martial arts.
But you'd be wrong.
Why?
Because through martial arts to some extent I think I may have found a degree of spirituality that I certainly never previously possessed?!
Through Taichi, through meditation, through various stretching and breathing excersises, massage, and a host of self-analysis and mind/body focus techniques, I have been able to reach more deeply into myself than I would ever previously have believed possible. And What I have found there, for the first time, is some spiritual "thing" that I can and DO have Faith in.
That something is Me.

Great Point! As I mentioned above, I believe this is because as we do things (for ourselves in the physical sense) our Spirit begins to get stronger. Taking care of our bodies and mind, is the first step to Spiritual wellness and if you walk this path you will begin to arrive at the place you have described above. Soon you realize that there is more than me, there is also I, We, Us and the combination of it all.

What's more, I appeal to you all, too! Just for the hell of it, if nothing else?? After all what have you got to loose? Why NOT strive to fond a more spiritual nature to your chosen art? Perhaps after all it really DOES have a lot more to offer you than just fitness, discipline, and means to defend yourself, etc?

P,S. To any of you who do choose to set out of this spiritual "holy grail" of martial arts quests don't forget to get back to me in a couple of hundred years or so just to let me know how you go

P.P.S. To a particular ME member who is currently in need of some healing - you already are one of the most positive people I've NEVER actually met?!? - so just you keep on doing what you do my friend. Good luck and best wishes!

Paris

Very candid and open, thanks for sharing! I too had a similar predicament, but my pain came from one of the mental variety.

I was young (19 yrs. old) when I began to get Depressed. I sought out a Psychologist who helped to an extent, however, my depression go worse and worse, to the point that thoughts of Suicide came through my mind. I began not to care, I isolated myself from the world as I began to wallow deeper and deeper in my own self made Hell.

Eventually the Psychologist recommended me to a Psyhiatrist, who put me on anti-depressants. Depression runs in the family, so they were worried it was hereditary. I asked my Psychologist if I would have to be on them for the rest of my life, she said "More than likely". I could not fathom being on Meds for the rest of my life, I felt weak, ignorant, etc. I felt like I was just giving up.

This lead me to a book store (I always took great comfort in reading) where I stumbled across a book on Taoism and the basic ideas of it. I finished the book in one day, the next day I went and bought two other Taoist books the Tao Te Ching and a Taoist Exercises book. All 3 had given me the ideas of Internal Alchemy and how Taoists took care of their bodies thereby taking care of their Spirit.

I had great hope and faith, for the first time in years, I knew this was my path. The week after I got the Anti-depressants, I (I never recommend doing this!!!!!) took myself off them, knowing that Taoists took no external meds that were not natural. I saw my Pscyhologist shortly after and she noticed the change in me, asking me what was different. I explained it all to her and while she was upset that I took myself off the meds, she saw I was adamant in what I was doing.

About one month later (after seeing her 2x a week) she realized I had turned my depression around, by my own hope and will. She released me with a full bill of health.

That was 10+ years ago and I have continued to study Spirituality in all ways I can. I continue to hold onto that same hope and faith that I received in that one week. I understand others may not be able to, nor believe, but that is them...not me.

Ryusui Ryu,

Ryusui_Ryu wrote:


Spirituality is all about awareness... our path of awareness is to learn about ourselves and eachother. It doesn't have to be through MA obviously but MA helps us understand ourselfs, and reach our potential as human beings.

I agree, great points!

I am a musician, as I play I flow, I meditate while playing, the music flows through me, I don't think about it I just let it happen, I am but a conductor for energy and music. Because I feel this amazing ability I understand that there is something higher working through me. Not a scientific energy, not a logical thought process but a sub concious open free moving energy which translates itself into music in this example.

What you are experiencing here is the "Force-That-Moves-Through-All-Things" it is similar to the idea of General Qi, with the exception that it does feels to be Sentient in some ways. Not quite as Sentient as Spirit, but it flows through you, it moves through you with purpose. The best way to describe this is with one word...Love.

With MA I have a similar feeling but as I have been playing for 13 years and only training in MA for 5years the levels are different but there is a definite realtionship between the two states of being with playing and creating music and MA.

Because of what you described above I imagine they will meld together for you soon enough. If they have not already. :)

We may not be able to answer all the big questions like why are we here etc, but we can discover the insight that it doesn't matter so long as we pursue peace and enlightenment, fate will guide ourpaths and things will happen when they are meant to.
We are part of a huge comic process which is far larger and more significant than our little world, but we are part of it and what goes on out there in the universe, is happening right here within ourselves. We become part of this world, not just on it.

For some reason this reminds me of a quote: "If you cannot find happiness where you are...Where do you expect to find it?"

There is no good and evil, there is only cause and effect. If a giant planet invades our solar system and causes utter choas and destroys most of the life on this world, would it be evil?

You pose an interesting question here since this is a Philosophy thread lets philosophize about this.

I beleive there IS good and evil, however, it is relative to an individual (based on their own morals, believes and values). There is also varying degrees of Good and Evil and it can quickly become Grey. For example, even an evil person, can redeem themselves in some respects.

Psychologically, if you say "I AM EVIL!" Are you really? To declare that you are something really means you have to be 'it' all the time. "I AM A LIAR!" Really? You lie everytime? So just by making the statement you are a Liar makes you not a liar right? Another example is Hitler, he actually allowed his family's doctor (who was jewish) and his entire family escape from Germany. This obviously shows some compassion and loyalty (good qualities) so was he entirely evil?

A person, is NOT their thoughts, a person is simply a human being. Others Judge others on their actions (whether they are good or evil) based on their own morals. Truly Good and Evil exist, but that is more within the our own judging minds, imo.

Also as a footnote... anyone had any outer body experiances or lucid dreams? Astral travelling? is this not our spirit?
Yes to all

A person, is NOT their thoughts, a person is simply a human being. Others Judge others on their actions (whether they are good or evil) based on their own morals. Truly Good and Evil exist, but that is more within the our own judging minds, imo.

Indeed I see your point, good and evil exists in our minds. We learn killing is wrong and therefore evil, we also learn that being compasionate is good and kind hearted.

But some people don't learn this difference and therefore show no remorse for 'evil' deeds. Phychopaths for example see no grey scale. They have things one way or the other, often can't show compassion because they simply can not understand it. The emotional development of the brain does not develope like the average human which brings me to another interesting question...

If the brain is damaged in such a way, why does it seem that the spirit is not present? the energy and enlightenment of peace does not exist in such a person, therefore is this spiritual connection only achievable if you are not brain damaged or mentally disabled in anyway??

Intelligence is required for deep thought, and this deep thought and meditation allows us connection to our spirit... so what about people who's brains can't work in this way? Does this mean that the brain creates the spirit? or the spirit is only connected via the brain?

I have often wondered this myself and think..'if I lose my mind, where does my spirit go?'

so what about people who's brains can't work in this way? Does this mean that the brain creates the spirit? or the spirit is only connected via the brain?

I personally tend to feel that the spirit is a creation of the brain. It seems to me that it is the human brain taking things one step further than is perhaps allowed by our analytical powers of reason, logic or rationality, but it is nevertheless still ultimately the manifestation of some form of scientific reasoning, but just on a more subliminal or unconscious level. Spirituality may not at first glance appear scientific, but I believe that this is simply because the calculations are too complex for the conscious human brain to grasp. This does not mean however that the spirit is of necessity a magical or supernatural thing.

Intelligence is required for deep thought, and this deep thought and meditation allows us connection to our spirit...

I think you've made a good beginning here, the operative statement being "...deep thought and meditation allows us connection to our spirit".

What this implies first and foremost (although yet to be debated) is that spirit does already exist in all human beings, regardless of their' individual mental state. If this is so then the question really becomes; who can, and who cannot ACCESS spirit?

So perhaps the question is not so much about brain-damaged people at all? After all there are many otherwise healthy, happy and "normal" individuals who are equally unable to connect to anything spiritual.

Ryusui_Ryu wrote:

1) If the brain is damaged in such a way, why does it seem that the spirit is not present? the energy and enlightenment of peace does not exist in such a person, therefore is this spiritual connection only achievable if you are not brain damaged or mentally disabled in anyway??

2) Intelligence is required for deep thought, and this deep thought and meditation allows us connection to our spirit... so what about people who's brains can't work in this way? Does this mean that the brain creates the spirit? or the spirit is only connected via the brain?

I have often wondered this myself and think..'if I lose my mind, where does my spirit go?'

Ryusui,
1) The brain is still a part of the physical body and it is the medium upon which we can communicate. The Spirit uses the mind to communicate to an individual what is going on etc. Individuals with mental disabilities cannot straighten out the communication in a coherent way b/c the mind does not function. Their spirit is still there, yet there mind is not. Psychopaths for example, usually feel NO remorse, guilt etc. So it is hypothesized (and usually "proven" when they are asked) that they do it b/c they want to see people feel things, that they cannot (Fear, horror, pain etc).

So in a sense, yes, the spiritual "connection" is only present in a fully functioning -mind-. However, this does not mean there is absence of Spirit. Take for example some people who are developmentally disabled, that are the kindest most compassionate people around. Their Spirit over-rides the lack of mental communication, allowing compassion to come through. Of course, they at times have their "break downs" but who doesn't?

2)I just want to clarify what do mean by "deep thought" here? Remember many meditation traditions have you "empty the mind" so the Spirit will shine through. This does not require thought per se, but requires complete surrender and allowing of an individual. A Zen master once wrote "To let go....to REALLY let all of it go. That is the big one isn't it!"

Paris wrote:

What this implies first and foremost (although yet to be debated) is that spirit does already exist in all human beings, regardless of their' individual mental state. If this is so then the question really becomes; who can, and who cannot ACCESS spirit?

So perhaps the question is not so much about brain-damaged people at all? After all there are many otherwise healthy, happy and "normal" individuals who are equally unable to connect to anything spiritual.
Great points,

It is my belief anyone can access the Spirit (brain damaged or otherwise) it is whether or not they truly want to. The catch here is not "wanting to" by -thinking- it, but by -feeling- it in your heart. A good example of this is Love:

Do you -want- love so bad you fool yourself into -thinking- you have it?

Or do you -feel- love with the person you are with, without -thinking- about it.

The same idea applies for Spirit. Some people -think- they are Spiritual, but they don't feel it (based on the fact they practice spiritual practices etc.). While others don't -think- they are, they just are.

Very interesting guys!

By deep thought I mean, deep listening. By letting go and clearing the mind, the sub conscious channels into the mind, sometimes revealing things to yourself. When I meditate I don't just in darkness. I am calm, relaxed, not thinking of anything yet I see and feel alot sometimes.

If colour meditation I see the charkra's spinning vortex like in my mind, I feel the embrace of the colours as they change. But my mind is clear and my body is light. It took years of practise to achieve this state, and I wouldn't say I have mastered it btu I can enter it pretty quickly now.

I wonder if blind people dream, if they ever have atral experiances, after all the spirit knows no blindness...

I'm not sure if we are diverting off the MA and spirtuality element here too much but its all relative..
In MA training, when moves become more natural with muscle memory being trained, the mind becomes clear when executing moves etc...
I have yet to really feel time 'slow' down for me but I am getting my timing alot better.

Has MA tapped into a sub conscious awareness which allows us a more spiritual connection??