If you'll humour me, I'd like to pursue the subject of knife defences in Martial Arts, as it's an area which concerns me, with a lot of MA groups teaching absolute bollocks.


Thought some of you might find this interesting reading, lifted from the DBMA forum.

Don't misread the article as saying that fatal injuries are unlikely to occur in a knife attack.
I've had that comment from a paramedic, but seen much evidence to the contrary.

There's more to come, but try and digest this;


This is from a surgeon with martial arts experience. It was posted on www.irongarmx.com . Very interesting.

"Anyway, the upshot is killing someone with a blade isn't as easy as it looks on TV. The scene where someone gets stabbed in the belly, then looks shocked, then drops dead is unrealistic. Either a fair amount of damage needs to be done, some very vital structures injured, or a fair amount of time to pass if the wounds aren't horrendous in order for someone to die from stab or slash wounds.

There's quite a bit of variability as to how folks respond to trauma in general. Some seem to die with minimum injury and others seem to withstand huge blood loss and horrific injuries. I haven't a clue what differentiates these two populations but wish I knew...

I said it before and I'll say it again. In a conflict for my life, I would rely on a blunt force instrument to the head before a bladed weapon to just about any anatomic structure to most quickly stop a threat. It doesn't matter what level of adrenaline you've got or what drugs you may have in your system. If you're struck hard enough in the head, you're going down. Also, the long term implications of a survived head injury are (in general) worse than those of a knife wound you recover from.

Trauma and human response to trauma is very interesting. I don't know if I believe that primates and humans in particular are harder to kill. Hunting injuries to animals are typically(hopefully) quite precise and should result in a rapid humane kill. Fighting injuries to humans presenting to trauma centers are less so. I would guess those folks shot by skilled snipers die quickly, similar to hunting wounds.

Anyway, at risk of being accused of being "disturbing" again, here are some generalities for delivering fatal wounds with a bladed weapon.

First: the blade must absolutely be sharp. I've operated on plenty of folks in which a dull edge pushed structures away rather than incising them. Arteries are relatively thick walled and elastic, a dull edge will displace rather than cut them.

Second: All other things equal, a larger blade will be better.

Third: Relying on a single wound to incapacitate an opponent is a bad idea.

Anatomic considerations: The body's actually pretty well designed and protects the most important structures.
If you want to get to the heart there are two reliable ways: A very sharp and sturdy knife thrust strongly just left of the sternal border around the 4th interspace(about nipple level on a guy) will do it. Otherwise, just go under the sternum(under the xiphoid) and aim at the left shoulder. This is basically how we place a needle in the pericardium to drain fluid out from around the heart.

The flexor/medial/anterior surfaces of the extremites are where the money is. In the arm, that's the inner aspect of the upper arm, the crease at the elbow, the palmar aspect of your forearm. In the lower extremity imagine a line from the crest of your pelvis to your pubic bone. About 1/2 of the way up(usually a bit less actually) you get your femoral artery and vein. If the weapon is directed back and up into the abdomen a bit, you can get the iliac vessels. These are especially hard to get to surgically and can not easily be treated with direct pressure. The femoral artery goes medially down the thigh (there's a deep branch as well) and then behind the knee in the midline roughly. It breaks into three vessels below the knee and is no longer that great a target.

In the abdomen, you'd be trying to get to the aorta or the vena cava. This would be actually VERY difficult with anything you're likely to carry around. There are some posterior approaches taht would work, but I doubt they'd be useful in the middle of a chaotic fight. The liver occupies the right upper quadrant and is a giant target. A large knife and multiple wounds would be necessary and there no guarantee whatsoever that this would end a fight quickly.

Stab wounds to the chest in general are likely to get the lungs which can result in collapse(by pneumo or hemothorax) and bleed quite a bit in general. Here, you might actually do well with a smaller knife, since if the opening in the chest is big enough, they won't get what's called a tension pneumothorax. In a similar vein, a small wound to the heart, like an ice pick doesn't kill by bleeding. The blood gets in the sac around the heart, and when the pressure builds up the heart can't fill. If it can't fill, it can't pump and that's that.

The neck is a tried and true target for bladed attacks. A tracheal injury in and of itself may well do nothing.
The carotid artery is medial to(on the inside of) the jugular vein and is a good target. Honestly, if I were able and wanted to inflict maximum damage from a bladed attack to the neck I would insert by stabbing where I thought the jug/carotid were and direct the knife to the contralateral side and backwards. When withdrawing, I'd try to pull the whole thing over to the other side. Alternatively you could direct it to the other ear(the back of it.) If you make a muscle in your neck, you'll see your sternocleidomastoid muscle. There's an inverted V formed by this muscle as one head goes to the clavicle and the other goes to the sternum. the hollow at the top of this V is a pretty good shot on the carotid and jugular.

If you get stabbed or cut and the guy runs off(or if it's an accident, etc) the treatment is DIRECT PRESSURE. Avoid tourniquets. Don't use pressure points above the injury. Get some rags or whatnot and jam them right on the wound and push HARD. Virtually all extremity injuries and even most neck injuries can be controlled by this maneuver.

Bear in mind that a fatal wound won't necessarily equal stopping your opponent. It does you no good if you get killed and then your opponent dies later in the ED or in the ICU.

Hence my statement about head injuries."

Note, this is not a tuitional series, just a sprinkling of respected material on the subject of Knife control/defence.
If you find the material of interest, you should pursue direct contact with the individuals generating it.

Karl Tanswells STAB program;




Paul Vunak;



"Never has there been a subject taught by so many, who know so little"

This lot is typical of the bollocks being taught in MA schools;

interesting post, I didnt have time to watch all of the videos.

with regards to knife defence, Ive always taken the view that if someone threatens me with a knife, the chances are they watn something. They can have it, because its not worth anyones life.


but my sensei teaches extensive knife defenses, and there is always a point where we can choose to take the knife from our attacker and use it against him/her or to simply get rid of it. I always choose the latter because I do not want to stab anyone unless there is literally no other chioce availiable.

thats just my opinion on knife defences and counterattacks.

the post was very good. Thankyou.

I don't disagree with what you're showing here Mule with the exception of one point... you are showing 2 different subjects as two sides of the same arguement. Knife vs Knife and Empty Hand vs Knife are not the same thing.

Vunak knows his stuff pretty well. The Filipino systems are great at knife fighting. I've done a lot of training with that stuff, and it is cool. I agree with the blunt trauma statement, with only on other thought. You'd have to assume that the dmg done in most knife fights is done by people with no idea what they are doing. Put a knife in the hands of a trained knife fighter and what you will see is very strategic cuts that are all over the body.

To Ben - The idea of letting them have what they want only works sometimes. The FBI says that 20 yrs ago that was more likely to work in your favor. They say that nowdays it is MORE likely than it used to be that they will kill you once they have what they want out of you. In the end, use you best judgement, but realize that criminals are getting tougher all the time.

dmccarthy wrote:
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To Ben - The idea of letting them have what they want only works sometimes. The FBI says that 20 yrs ago that was more likely to work in your favor. They say that nowdays it is MORE likely than it used to be that they will kill you once they have what they want out of you. In the end, use you best judgement, but realize that criminals are getting tougher all the time.

yes thats fair, i would always judge the situation, but hopefully I wil never have to decide. But on the whole I do agree you should bear in mind what they will do after theyve got the money (assuming its money they want)

also its important how you give it to them, Ive always been taught to throw it on the floor, because that will give you the split second you need whilst they are watching your wallet.

Ben wrote:
[quote]dmccarthy wrote:
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also its important how you give it to them, Ive always been taught to throw it on the floor, because that will give you the split second you need whilst they are watching your wallet.

in theory. just make sure you don't take your eyes off them. and move asap.

dmccarthy wrote:
I don't disagree with what you're showing here Mule with the exception of one point... you are showing 2 different subjects as two sides of the same arguement. Knife vs Knife and Empty Hand vs Knife are not the same thing.
The Vunak clips?
The point was just to elevate awareness about knife training methodology, as s many are practicing nonsense.

Vunak knows his stuff pretty well. The Filipino systems are great at knife fighting. I've done a lot of training with that stuff, and it is cool. I agree with the blunt trauma statement, with only on other thought. You'd have to assume that the dmg done in most knife fights is done by people with no idea what they are doing. Put a knife in the hands of a trained knife fighter and what you will see is very strategic cuts that are all over the body.
On a percentile level, I'd agree that someone who knows 'where' to cut is going to cause more damage than someone untrained.

OK, for reference, here is a piccy of all the arteries;

In the Filipino systems we usually cuts in many angles on many different parts of the body in one attack. I'll strike the guy's weapon arm first, and from there i can make many choices such as the femoral artery, the carotid artery, or the brachial artery. Then there's organs to attack as well :)

Mule- I understand that there are things being taught out there that arn't good quality, and also things that are just plain dumb. But I just want to look at some of this in a different perspective...

Not all clubs specialise in Knife defense, a lot of clubs teach for other reason above that of being able to take someone out that has a knife... but....
A person in a life or death situation would have better chance at living should an attack be inevitable if they had some kind of practice. Just training with a partner still heightens your senses and movements to come off the line, cover attacks, look for openings etc. Now I'd rather have some experience than none at all. And with time skills become better (hopefully). Some of these fancy knife take downs like the ju jitsu guys etc are done for training in their style and many Sensei's would say that out on the street its a different ball game.
But still if someone was coming at me with a knife even if I tried to co-operate I would like to have some chance. I hope that as said before people will use there judgment.

Anyone who teaches a technique in 10 mins and says this will work for definite is where the crap comes in. In real life your gonna have to take risks, sometimes you risk moving in and getting cut in order to take the guy out, or just stand there while he stabs you... Experience will prevail in some cases or at least give a slightly better chance than having no experience what so ever.

I can't help thinking that you have a vendetta against any form of weapon defense if it doesn't appear to meet your standards??

Ryusui_Ryu wrote:


I can't help thinking that you have a vendetta against any form of weapon defense if it doesn't appear to meet your standards??

Well who am I to be advocating any form of standard?
I'm nobody!
If you are practising/propogating defence against a knife, in the manner, negatively exhibited in the previous clips, it is you who need to be taking notes though.

If you've been stabbed, slashed, or even threatened with a knife, then you can offer something to the discussion.
If all your experience boils down to 'once' cutting a finger whilst chopping coriander for sunday dinner, then you should STFU. :)