I don't mean to offend Mule...

All I'm saying is how does one learn anything at all in regards to self defence if its not simulated first? Must we all go out and get threatened by a knife in order to learn a defense towards it?

Ryusui_Ryu wrote:
I don't mean to offend Mule...
Not at all.

All I'm saying is how does one learn anything at all in regards to self defence if its not simulated first? Must we all go out and get threatened by a knife in order to learn a defense towards it?
If we're going to teach, we have a responsibility to do so from an informed perspective.
Karl Tanswell was stabbed several times.
The majority of people teaching knife work haven't even suffered a paper cut.
It's a subject close to my heart, as I fell out with a whole organisation over this and they're still teaching the same crap.

I do see your point Mule.

I understand that to truely understand something you must experiance it, but would it still be OK if these other clubs learned the way of fighting with random knife attacks and how to deal with them on some kind of level, so long as the attitude is that 'this is the dojo and the street is different, we are not training you to knife fight but you could apply this if your life depends on it, if you want real knife defense see a specialist'

I still think that people who train with random attacks from knife would have some skills that may be applicable out in the street.

Some clubs do make it clear that some of the techniques are for the Art form to learn the techniques and practise ones form and learn the bodies reactions. Not for practicle defense against real weapons...

Also I think most training and techniques is based on an attacker not being trained or skilled with knifes, but desperate people not knowing how to wield a knife...

Ryusui_Ryu wrote:
I do see your point Mule.

I understand that to truely understand something you must experiance it, but would it still be OK if these other clubs learned the way of fighting with random knife attacks and how to deal with them on some kind of level, so long as the attitude is that 'this is the dojo and the street is different, we are not training you to knife fight but you could apply this if your life depends on it, if you want real knife defense see a specialist'
Some degree of honesty is required yes.
To be frank, I'd rather nothing was taught than crap.



Also I think most training and techniques is based on an attacker not being trained or skilled with knifes, but desperate people not knowing how to wield a knife...
Dangerous territory.

It's not dangerous territory if your training for the Art and not to guarantee your defense of the weapon. But unless you train soley for knife attacks and get alot of experiance with people who are skilled knife fighters you just are not gonna learn how to defend yourself against this weapon. Most people are not going to train this way but what they learn is a skill that could defend them from the desperate oppertunist using a knife to threaten and has no knowledge as a last resort.

Even if you have skilled knife fighting experiance, against an attacker who is also skilled it would be a slim chance you would survive. However what I am saying is that it's better to learn how to deal with attacks on the basis that you got no option and the person stikes you un-skillfully if your not willing or interested in doing full knife defense.

Same for any attack or weapon, you get someone skilled chances are slim for anyone. You want to learn to fight join the army or something, you want to learn an Art form with practical skills with practical applications (some of the time) then pick a more traditional MA. If the club tells you this is how to defend against a knife indefinately then thats wrong unless as you say its from experiance and a specialist.

In My opinion if someone tried to stab me for whatever reason and i had no chance of getting away i would want to have trained for the situation.

Hopefully MA will give you the awarness to see the threat before it gets too far but i don't think training fist agaist weapon is a bad idea. Like i say if it ever came down to it it's unlikely you'd get away without injury, knowledge and training may reduce that.

The main truth about knives is that they can cut you easily and cause you a lot of damage with limited effort. This should never be forgotten.

If someone has a knife and wants to hurt you the chances are that you will get cut or stabbed.

What's more is they don't have to be big or particularly skilled to do it either. They may also have no concept of the consequences for you or them. It doesn't sound nice, does it?

I think that often people want absolutes and to learn to defend themselves from anything. This means that instructors sometimes come up with unrealistic defences and train unrealistic attacks rather than be honest.

For me there are three main areas to think about.

Firstly, you're in an argument with someone and they start to reach into their pocket. They may have a knife, they may not, but are you going to wait to find out or are you going to use a pre-emptive strike?

From a training point of view, you can train pre-emptives and what your trigger is. It's also worth training other defences and then the aggressor producing a training knife; this makes grappling defence interesting.

Secondly, someone has a knife and demanding your cash, mobile, ipod, etc. Although I don't subscribe totally to the "if you can see the knife then they aren't going to use" argument, the goal could be more for intimidation than them wanting to stab you. The question is, do you want to be the one that finds out? So (in no particular order) first option is running, second is to give them your cash and third is to take them on. All have potential pros and cons.

Thirdly, they are intent on stabbing/slashing you. This is all about survival, it could be the first cut that kills you or it could be the third or it could be the thirtieth. You can't predict how they will attack you, slash and/or stab and you may not know you've been stabbed until it's happened or even after.

In order to train whatever defence you favour you have to train it honestly and not in an attack, stop and stand there whilst your partner counters style.

I did a STAB seminar with Karl Tanswell a few years ago and it was a real eye opener. Is it infallible? no, but it is honest. I like the 2 on 1 position a lot as it gives control of the knife wielding limb and a position to strike, whereas a lot of defences I have seen neglect one or the other of these. I find the pick up difficult at times, especially against controlled short slashes.

I would definitely recommend this program, though some of you who had issues with the word "aliveness" might not appreciate all that Mr Tanswell has to say. I've also heard good stuff about Rich Dimitri's and Lee Morrison's programs, but haven't had direct experience of them.

My instructor does teach some slightly different knife defences based on his experience in the police. Some of these, I don't think would work for me, but he does seem to make them work due to his strength. I think it was these that he showed when MartialEdge filmed him.

I'd like to point out other than being threatened by someone with a knife a school, no one has ever attacked me with a knife. All my students know that as well, so you, like them, can choose to take my thoughts above with a pinch of salt.

take care
Steve

SteveBruce wrote:
[quote]

This means that instructors sometimes come up with unrealistic defences and train unrealistic attacks rather than be honest.
David Carradine as the wandering monk, kicking knives out of people hands barefoot, has a lot to answer for.
I don't know which is the best word...ignorance, dishonesty, or irresponsibility.
I just object to people teaching crap and passing it off as Martial Arts.
It's one thing teaching crap that'll get somebody beat up, it's another teaching something that'll imbue a false sense of confidence and/or get them killed.

I would definitely recommend this program, though some of you who had issues with the word "aliveness" might not appreciate all that Mr Tanswell has to say.I can appreciate Karls stuff without losing my vocabulary and accepting the Americanisation of the English language.

In my experience the main thing to consider is whether the knife-wielder knows what they are doing or not. Someone who knows what they are doing will hide the knife in their sleeve and use a punch to slit your throat. Good luck defending against that. Someone who doesn't know what they are doing (most people) will wave it around, do obvious stab motions and such. These can be defended against. The main principle that I take to every fight is that as long as you are alive and better off then the other guy, then you've won the fight. Never expect to go into a fight and come out unscathed. That's impractical and ignorant.

Hi Mule having been in a mugging where I put my hand and and got stabbed in the hand, and once in a knife fight. Mental control is evertthing; if they show you the knife, the urge to panic is very strong. If you don't see the knife a stab can feel like a normal punch particularly with the adrenaline, until you notice the wet patches. The big thing is get of the line of attack before you anything. If you want to know hoe good you are, spare with someone holding a red marker pen while wearing a white t-shirt, and see the damage afterwards. It will change what techniques you will use promise!

Ronin1185 wrote:
If you want to know hoe good you are, spare with someone holding a red marker pen while wearing a white t-shirt, and see the damage afterwards. It will change what techniques you will use promise!
Hi Ronin, where ya bin?
I was teaching classes like that back in 95'

Sometimes even the pro's get it wrong;